...do teachers really work that hard?

[User298895613]

I know the general idea on AIBU is that teachers work load is ridiculous, that they work extra hard and that they never never stop to the point that they r all seemingly leaving the profession.

But, AIBU to wonder if they are any different to anyone else? and actually might have it a bit easier? I mean, I also work myself into the ground, am exhausted, never stop etc... But I don't have summer holidays off to look after my kids, and I often work well into the small hours at night.

I'm not saying teachers don't work hard, but sometimes on munsnet I just feel like some teachers kind of spend a lot of time complaining about the workload, when maybe it's just the same as everyone elses, but with a nice long summer holiday?

(Sorry, I appreciate this will really inflame some posters, but it just had been annoying me lately)

I'm a school tech, and the answer is yes, they do. I start at 8, most are there around 7. I leave some nights at 6 or later, a lot are still hard at work.

That's just logistics, marking, planning... On top of that they teach 11-18 year olds, every day. And with ours, that's not easy.

One of the reasons I always keep my kettle on and my door open...

My daughter in law works extremely hard. Leaves the house at 7.15 and gets home at 6 every day. Often then spends the evening marking. During the holidays she goes in the first and last weeks. She also teaches 5/6 yr olds all day too with all the joys of snot etc that brings!

@ Arkos
I agree with you! Definitely some martyrdom going on in this thread. As an NQT I worked very long hours but as an experienced teacher I don’t work evenings or weekends and never the holidays. Despite the changing curriculum I work collaboratively with my departmental colleagues to create new resources that we then share to minimise planning time.
The pay I get is not commiserate with my qualifications and experience, so il will do my job and do it well but I’ll be damned if I’ll be putting in ridiculous hours for the money I get.

@arkos
What kind of school do you work in?

We have to mark after every lesson and do in depth graded marking every three lessons. This means a lot of marking per week. So that, combined with planning means that it takes a lot of evening time!

Once lessons are planned, can’t they be reused the following year/s?

A Scottish school that achieves excellent results. None of the teachers up here work like that. Our car parks empty at the end of the day...about 4. They tend to get busy after 830 in the morning. People tend to take stuff home at prelim time but that's about it. No one is working like you do

We don't have set marking. Jotters need to be checked once a term...i tend to mark essays and the students mark other exercises. 'marking less to achieve more' was a big thing up here.

A Scottish school that achieves excellent results.

I think this says a lot. When working in a school in special measures I feel like you have to work much more in terms of hoop jumping and generally doing as you’re told. Not necessarily for the good of the children, but because it’s all steam ahead trying to improve. ‘Marking less to achieve more’ is definitely hugely important. Unfortunately I’m not in a position to argue at my place!

Two things, arkos : you know yourself that that is not representative and, also, the subject one teaches has a huge impact on marking. On another thread, you declared 'no' Scottish teachers teach out of specialism, and then plenty appeared who did! You must realise by now you are the exception rather than the rule!

We have a workload agreement here : but it seems to have been torn up.

battling hahahahahahaha. Are you not aware how many times the curriculum has changed and the goalposts have moved, even in the last 5 years??? Couple that with the constant shifting sands of 'how' we are ment to teach,mark and feed back, and how often, and you get a lethal combination.

A planned lesson that works well for one group might not work well for another, too.

I have been teaching nearly 30 years. I spend far more time on planning and marking now than I used to. That is down to a) an increased scrutiny and expectation and b) new specifications in every year group and subject I teach.

Once lessons are planned, can’t they be reused the following year/s?

You could definitely use them as a basis if they still match the scheme of work (which seems to change every five mins), but the children are different.

The teachers I have known work a lot less than many in other professions, eg lawyers, doctors. Maybe they are not representative but I don’t think there’s some sort of exceptionally long hours done by teachers. In many parts of the country their salaries (especially once you count holidays and pension) compare pretty favourably too. It depends who you compare yourself to I suppose but I don’t see any evidence that teachers work so exceptionally hard as is claimed on mumsnet. Maybe a little perspective is needed...

I think shortages are because we train only a restricted number. Same with eg GPs who are pretty well paid.

Also there are large shortages of some in my profession despite there being a good salary and no restrictions on degree numbers. There are plenty of candidates who are straight out of uni but a shortage of those who are actually trained. Not uncommon.

Ex teacher here and married to a deputy head
Sorry not read the full thread so this may be repetitive
As any profession you'll get the odd slacker but from my own experience it is the only job I've had where I've never not felt stressed and nervous driving to work.
It's like constantly doing a big presentation with an often difficult audience. Even in a nice school things are unpredictable.
There is non stop criticism - from pupils, parents, other teachers and inspectors , media etc
I lost a lot of my self confidence after a run of bad observations
You're literally thrown in at the deep end teaching classes from the start
I'm now nhs and it took months before I was signed off to do quite straight forward things yet in teaching from the word go you are on your own
Also in the nhs staff in my area are able to claim toil if they work outside their hours- this never happens in teaching (I know other professions to but people have compared nursing)
Particularly in primary (I'm ex secondary and my husband always had more to do at home than me) they always change the goal posts- I assumed once you'd done a couple of years of teaching say year 3 you'd be able to recycle your lesson plans but it doesn't work like that
It's also a bit of a myth that behaviour is more of a secondary problem although year 10 boys can be pretty intimidating they are easier to reason with than a 6 year old having a melt down
I'd never go back

You can definitely see the 'presenteeism' issues on this thread. And a lot of that pressure seems to come from internal sources (bullying SLTs, for example). But some seems to come externally. Many non teachers on MN declare teachers wastrels if they leave at or before 4 pm. I find it highly unlikely that would be said about anyone else working a job where the main 'clients' had left. Some teachers on this thread who leave early claim 'light' workloads and they are arriving at 6.30 am. Anyone can see that is crazy. Frankly, I like school who won't open doors to teachers at that time, and kick them out by 5- 5.30. They do exist , but they are rare. The reluctance of most schools to investigate workload and to address it speaks volumes about the cannon fodder approach that is so damaging.

I would have thought most people would want rested and unstressed teachers teaching their children, but it seems many think they deserve to be worked to the bone and, if they aren't, then they bloody well should be.

There is enough stress between the hours of 8.30 and 3.30 managing the actual children , and colleagues' demands. I'll bloody well leave at 3.30 if I want to, thanks. I am seriously worried about the mental and physical helath of so many teachers who can't or won't - for a host of reasons, some self-inflicted, most imposed- work reasonable hours. As some have pointed out, the DfE has admitted there is a workload crisis. That does not seem to be enough evidence for MN!

Actually I pointed out on that other thread that teachers... according to the gtsc.... should not be teaching lessons in subjects which they are not qualified. I couldn't do a regular shift as a maths teacher for example as I'm not qualified and it's not part of my degree. You chose to ignore that point piggy. I'll repeat again that if you are being asked to regularly (not random cover lessons) teach a subject that you are not qualified in you should contact your union.
It's people letting things like this slip that has probably ended up with this expectation that we will just take any shit.

Love the idea of Wind up Wednesday

See I get paid more than my teacher friend and I know I do a fraction of the work she does. I do count myself lucky. However one of my very good friends get paid fantastic money and does less work than I do. It's very annoying.

On a side note, i'd love to be a teacher but I can't afford to retrain. I had always planned on doing it but then life got in the way and now we couldn't afford for me to not be earning my current salary for any time period. DH also has always wanted to be a teacher (his whole family are teachers) but again, we can't afford a drop in salary while he trains. Such a shame as there is a shortage and two very willing candidates here but it just isn't possible!

Zsazsa , I think you might find the 'perspective' and, indeed , the facts on here if you RTFT.

There absolutely is a recruitment, and a retention , crisis. It is not made up or exaggerated. But you carry on believing that you know why.

Can I say a massive thank you to all teachers! You have my utter respect and admiration. I couldn’t do what you do, you deserve all the holidays you get (which I know you spend the vast majority of working) Thank you

I imagine looking after 30 kids is hard whilst you’re doing it, but I don’t buy all this working long hours stuff. If they need to do that they must be really inefficient and desperately need a time mamangement course!

I have 2 teacher friends, they each get time away from class that’s called preparation and development time or something along those lines they mark whilst the kids are getting on with their work. During the summer holiday they go in for about 3 days to spring clean their classroom and set up for next year. They both generally work 8-4 unless it’s parents evening.

A point not really acknowledged is free will. If a teacher finds the pay and conditions unacceptable they can consider changing jobs. In the cases I see, while it is more than forty hours a week when school is in, it is nowhere near the 70-90 hours quoted here.

I have said this to my friends who argue the holidays (which apparently aren’t a perk) are too good to give up?

I think in their case they have got into a habit of complaining -and they can’t say anything positive about the job incase people think they have it easy. I sympathise to a point, but it’s hard to listen to constant and very detialed complaining about every aspect of some one else’s job, when they won’t do anything to actually change their situation.

Arkos that's exactly the point I made to you. You are in a bubble where you can't see you are extraordinarily lucky. You don't even seem to accept that the rest of Scotland isn't like your school. You also seem quite assertive. In many schools, when you speak up, life is made very very hard for you. I guess in your school you may never need to have done that?

The teachers I have known work a lot less than many in other professions, eg lawyers, doctors.

But we aren’t talking about a comparison with other professions. The thread was about how little teachers work and that’s not the case.

I’m not necessarily sure the salaries are always comparable. My GP drives a Porsche and I caught him buying super fancy wine at Christmas . I’m eBaying everything in my cupboards and doing exam marking to make ends meet this year. That’s fine, it’s my choice and I’m not complaining, before someone jumps on me.

You say perspective is needed but you have no idea what working life is like for teachers. Just as I have no idea what working life is like for any other job. So I keep my mouth shut about them.

they mark whilst the kids are getting on with their work

If I did this I would face a serious dressing down from the head.

Also PPA time in my school is 2/3 hours per week. How is that going to get all the planning and marking done?

Lots of people on here appear to have teacher friends who don’t work very hard. My friends would also say that about me because no one likes a moany teacher, so they have no idea how hard I’m working.