AIBU to think Employers cannot allocate annual leave?

[Daisydrum]

DH’s Employer has allocated annual leave for the whole year. No one is happy about it, everyone has spoken up about it but apparently there is nothing they can do!
Is there anything we can do?

My husband is a train driver and all of his annual leave is rostered

We have to save at least five days for Christmas as the company shuts down.
Large majority not allowed to take leave during school summer holidays as that is our busiest time, we refurb and maintain properties for local governments so that's the only time we can get access to schools.

This sounds really unfair, surely the company should be a bit fairer and give at least one week a year during school holidays, not necessarily Christmas. Dh recently changed jobs. His company has a 2 week summer holiday shut down and at Christmas. I’d actually rather not have this enforced set 2 week block but infinitely preferable to your situation. People are going to vote with their feet at your dhs company.

I work in the travel industry and leave is shared out to ensure there are no shortfalls in staff numbers during the busiest holiday periods. We are allowed to express a preference and people who have previously taken time like Christmas, Easter or school summer holidays have their preferences considered behind those who have worked these periods recently. It’s perfectly normal to assign leave to make sure all shifts are covered, but unusual not to try and accommodate preferences.

If this has never been the system before, I suspect that it represents a change in the employees' contractual terms which cannot be imposed overnight. Your husband and his colleagues need to contact ACAS.

Shocked to hear this is legal (although I know of places who close at Christmas and plants that close in the summer, but they warn staff when they start).
Only thing I can say is to suck it up while you look for another job.

Perfectly legal. DH works for a building firm that shuts down for various holidays throughout the year - he has two weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, a week in May and two weeks in August. It'll be great when we have kids as it all fits with school holidays though!

I work in retail and can take annual leave whenever I like except for December and a few weeks throughout the year when we have sales. But as a manager I need to coordinate with the other managers so only one of us is off at once!

I suspect that it represents a change in the employees' contractual terms which cannot be imposed overnight.

Most contracts will have a clause in saying annual leave can be dictated by the needs of the business and that the employer has the right to allocate it where necessary.

Just like they have the right to cancel it providing the give the correct notice.

Plus its the default position for statutory leave under the working time legislation. The employer must give double the amount of notice as the leave to be taken. So if the employer wanted all employees to take 4 specific weeks off in April it would need to give 8 weeks notice of this.

This has always been the position in the working time regs which have been in place since 1998.

Thank you to all. Especially thank you to those who mentioned “custom and practise” and speaking with ACAS. If nothing more it will mean I will feel we are doing something towards it as its the sudden change that has shocked everyone. He’s been allocated certain weeks across the year (one is on school holidays, three not). He’s looking to swap but this is easier said than done. I guess he will enjoy some time to himself if the swaps prove unsuccessful.
It’s been quite eye opening hearing about the different work places and holiday management. Thank you to everyone for taking the time to share their stories.

Speaking with acas will do nothing at all I'm afraid. The law allows employers to allocate holiday.

I think what has suprised me from this thread is that all their annual leave is allocated. I can understand some business having shutdowns, in fact thinking about it my son has to take 3 days at Christmas while the company he works for shuts but he us free to take leave any other time.
I really didnt know that apart from certain jobs you couldn't plan when you went away especially at shirt notice. It really must limit your life fun in many ways e.g., friends asking if you fancy a long weekend, a gig that needs a night away mid week, seeing a holiday bar in, a friends wedding abroad etc..
We get our rotas normally 6 weeks in advance but even then we can put a weeks leave in and the manager will swop things about to accomadate.

Can he take parental leave for school holidays?

Junior Drs in the NHS often get rotas with allocated leave, but the possibility of taking parental leave softens the blow a little.

Especially thank you to those who mentioned “custom and practise” and speaking with ACAS.

"Thank you to all the people who gave me false hope but not to those who actually told me the truth about it and said what ACAS will say when I call them...."

It really depends if this is changing the contract of employment. A contract does not have to be written down. If emoloyees have normally negotiated when they take leave it is a variation to impose it for a whole Year and into the future without consultation. Employers should understand their workforce and their needs. It is very short sighted to treat employees like this. Jobs where it is known holidays will be imposed should have this flagged very precisely in the contract.

Obviously employers can shut down factories at quiet times, eg Jaguar Land Rover. Employees can give notice of enforced closures etc. However if this is a change to standard work practices, even if it’s written in the contract but never been enforced, there should be consultation. Poor working practices make good employees leave. I would hope your DH can get another job for a considerate employer.

Bubbles "However if this is a change to standard work practices, even if it’s written in the contract but never been enforced, there should be consultation."

that's my understanding as well.

I wonder if this has been caused by a power hungry manager, or an incompetent one who struggled to say "no" to unreasonable requests and decided to impose this shit system in order to avoid their own inadequacy. As it's clearly not necessary, going by history, then I'll be interested to see what legal advice you get.

No: you cannot take parental leave for school Holidays! Firms cannot allow this for obvious reasons. Every parent would want it. This is a contractual matter and nothing else. It’s a pretty poor way to treat people without any lead in time if holidays have been booked.

My work will allocate holidays if you don't book before certain dates, the issue I have is the management constantly forget to tell you when you've been allocated so people go to work when they are supposed to be off it's extremely frustrating.

We have restrictions to ensure that only a limited number of people have a/l across the whole business at the same time. There's always a handful of staff who drag their feet and accrue loads then want it all towards to end of the holiday year. Its a right pain to sort

No: you cannot take parental leave for school Holidays!

Yes you can, you can take parental leave for anything you want, and schools holidays is exactly the situation it was invented for. It's unpaid and the employer can turn down requests for operational reasons but it can most definitely be used to cover school holidays.

No: you cannot take parental leave for school Holidays!

That is true for most things but NOT for things that are covered by statute. The always employers can impose holiday dates (for statutory holiday, they can make their own arrangements for any additional holiday) with the correct notice and the employer has a right to rely on that law as much as the employee does.

You are right that it is not good for employee relations, people will leave, etc etc but that's not the same issue.

BubblesBuddy why post something that is just utterly factually incorrect?

Parental leave can be used for school holidays depending on your employers policies. It’s actually an incredibly common way of using parental leave. The NHS and many councils give 4 weeks paid and 6 weeks unpaid leave per child up to the age of 14. This is not emergency leave, paternity etc...simply parental leave to be used to support family friendly working. As childcare during holidays can be an issue, people commonly use it in this way. The leave has to be approved of course so everyone in one dept doesn’t go off at once. I have taken at least 2 weeks every summer holiday for the past 3 years.

OPif its school hols you are looking for, have a look at play schemes. My DD1 goes for 3 weeks every summer, £300 a week and has the time of her life. Far cheaper than the 2k plus I would lose on pay if i took parental leave.

I get assigned leave, I work with horses on a 5.5 day shift rota that changes every week, we get a temp in as holiday cover so everyone takes a week off one after the other, it's the only way we'd be able to take time off. There's a little flexibility if you ask far enough in advance or someone is happy to swap weeks but otherwise it's take it or leave it. If I need a specific day or a couple I can change my days off and run them together, I've worked 10 days in a row to get 3 days off for a family wedding but it's the only way I can take time off other than my assigned weeks off. I also work every bank holiday and get to choose between having Xmas day or boxing day off but no guarantees to get either off. I presume any sort of care or service job would be similar where you need to make sure there's a minimum number of staff and you can't just shut the business down for a week.

Yes it’s legal provided they’ve given enough notice which it sounds like they have. If it’s just been imposed on staff without any explanation or discussion it certainly doesn’t sound the best from an employee relations perspective. Might be worth considering a grievance to see if they can get an explanation