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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think most people in the UK don't really care about NI

526 replies

Tooldemont · 07/02/2019 16:23

Just that really, we don't seem to be a together nation and many people I know would just prefer Ireland to become one country on that landmass.

Maybe it's just my circles, but rings true here

OP posts:
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5
Redpilled · 10/02/2019 12:34

I care about it because I consider myself to be British rather than simply "English" The danger here is that when people dabbling in identity politics and start to consider dumping bits of the country because they are a hassle then it leads to a dark path. Russians and Germans did that a few decades ago and 120Million dead people later its generally considered a mistake!

The other thing to consider is .. why stop at Northern Ireland, why not jettison wales and Scotland as well? 80% of the population and the economy are based in England. Just saying that we are a united kingdom, and while that exists we are better as one country. Break that up and then I want my own country. If England started to assert a selfish self-interest at the expense of the other home nations, wealth would concentrate in England and Britain would become unstable.

Parthenope · 10/02/2019 12:45

Redpilled, you appear to be forgetting, firstly that the island of Ireland was partitioned less than a century ago as a disastrous after-effect of colonialism, secondly that it's not just a 'British' matter, and thirdly that we are facing this absolute clusterfuck at the moment in part because of the self-interested identity politics of Little Englanders.

Voila212 · 10/02/2019 12:45

I agree Nevertalks I actually only found that site when I was searching brexit news articles, some of the comments are scary but they are not isolated a lot of pages especially British paper pages have comments that are shocking. Now I know it's only keyboard warriors but if it shows a fraction of the mentality out there then I feel we are all doomed, British and Irish alike.

NeverTalksToStrangers · 10/02/2019 13:16

Voila the comments section was actually worse because it allowed more anonymity than Facebook does. I can see why they stopped it.

StreetwiseHercules · 10/02/2019 14:16

“I care about it because I consider myself to be British rather than simply "English" The danger here is that when people dabbling in identity politics and start to consider dumping bits of the country because they are a hassle then it leads to a dark path. ”

Very funny.

Britishness as an national identity is designed as a proxy to impose Englishness on the other uk nationalities by stealth.

It is literally nothing else.

prettybird · 10/02/2019 14:48

This is why it is important to recognise the impact on both NI and Ireland Sad

www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0210/1028662-shooting-the-darkness/

By Claire Byrne

If you're finding it hard to get your head around Brexit and what might happen if a deal can't be found, don't despair, because most people are.

Even the politicians who are dealing with it day-in and day-out are suffering from head-melt. It gets so confusing and complex that at times, it can create spaghetti junctions in the most reasoned and seasoned heads.

Perhaps one way of making sense of one of the most profound potential impacts for us here in Ireland is to watch a programme which will remind you why a border-free Ireland is worth fighting for.

RTÉ Television recently broadcast a documentary called Shooting the Darkness - it's still available on the RTE Player.

The programme chronicled the experiences of press photographers in Northern Ireland who started their careers taking pictures at agricultural shows, community events and the like, before the Troubles cast them into the role of war correspondents.

A by-product of their fascinating stories of covering the terror of those days, was the distillation and crystallisation of the horror of it. Picture after picture showed the aftermath of bombings, shootings, torture and the raw grief and fear left in the terrible silent aftermath.

The photographs those brave journalists risked their lives to take, showed how horrendous life was then - children growing up in fear, many bereaved, injured or left nursing a family member who was maimed in the name of a war with, it must have seemed, no end in sight.

There is a doctor with his head in his hands crouching over a dead body; an older woman praying over the corpse of a man whose crime was his faith and a class of schoolchildren in tears of grief at the funeral of a classmate.

It's not easy to watch, but Shooting the Darkness is so important for us all to see at this critical moment in our history.

There is a sense, that perhaps in our relief that things are so much better now, many of us may have forgotten just how bad it was - now is the time for a shocking reminder, one which Shooting the Darkness provides.

Political journalist Michael Brennan, writing in the Sunday Business Post suggested over the weekend that if it were shown on a British TV channel before the Brexit deadline, it might just get the message home about just how serious all of this is.

Having watched Shooting the Darkness, it is hard to fathom how the Good Friday Agreement happened at all. So entrenched was the conflict that the signing of that historic 35-page document is truly a precious event and it is endlessly more precious because, largely, it worked.

Reading it again in the last week, the simple language of respect, equality and a commitment to recognise difference and to agree to move forward solely on the basis of democratic consent, seems idealistic but so effective has it been, that there is an entire generation who only know peace on this island.

We know that there are those who are unshakeable in their belief that Brexit will benefit the UK - whether it will or not remains to be seen, but the question has to be, is it worth creating a border on this island again? Could it ever be worth even the tiniest risk of a return to that awful gut-wrenching pain that this country has suffered time and again?

The Good Friday Agreement became a victim of its own success. Because of the relative peace and calm in Northern Ireland since the latter part of 1998, very few seemed to consider the damage Brexit could do, by politicising the border again.

One of the first times it seemed to hit the national consciousness in Britain was when British Labour MP Stephen Pound gave an ad hoc interview to Channel Four at his party conference last September. He succinctly said that even "a camera up a pole... will become a target" and that if such targets had to be defended by uniformed customs officers from the UK, then the "peace process is finished".

Much water has flowed under the Brexit bridge since Stephen Pound said that, but that truth still remains. If the UK leaves the EU and takes Northern Ireland with it, fully out of the customs union and the single market, then this island will play host to an external frontier of the European Union.

It will be our responsibility to ensure that goods do not enter the Republic and the rest of the EU from the North - it is that simple.

Once the checks start, who knows where it will lead us.

The Good Friday Agreement makes reference, a number of times, to the EU, perhaps most notably, when it says all sides wish to "develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and close cooperation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the EU".

Where does Brexit leave that?

And where does Brexit leave the Good Friday Agreement?

norijunior · 10/02/2019 18:41

Please forgive me if these are stupid questions. I didn't grow up in the UK and am still learning about NI!
Firstly, the GFA makes leaving the EU very hard. I appreciate many will think this is a price worth paying, or a positive. I don't remember it being highlighted at the time of the GFA though. Was it discussed in the media and known by voters in NI at the time?

  1. I couldn't see any mention of the impact on the GFA in the government Brexit information leaflet sent out to all households. That seems a weird omission. Does anyone know why they didn't mention it?
IDoN0tCare · 10/02/2019 18:58

Does anyone know why they didn't mention it?

Personally I think it wasn’t mentioned because those remainers in power didn’t honestly think people were foolish enough to vote the uk and NI, so didn’t see it as an issue. They didn’t think they had to put the work in, so just used platitudes and sound bites. The also don’t give a shit about the people of NI and, in their ignorance and arrogance, thought they could could just pop the border back and it wouldn’t be an issue. These fuckers in power are now planning to use NI as a dumping ground for nuclear waste fro the UK. They really are showing their contempt for us and that is one of the main reasons I would vote for a reunited Ireland.

Parthenope · 10/02/2019 19:01
  1. Those who worked on the GFA didn’t have a time machine in which to teleport forwards to see the clusterfuck brought about by an internal Tory squabble and an underinformed electorate. Plus, why would the offchance that the UK might decide to leave the EU outweigh the chance of lasting peace in NI in anyone’s mind?
  1. It was discussed in the Irish media, it was discussed in the NI media, it was brought up by Irish and NI politicians. It was discussed in detail on here, I remember. Very little of substance made it onto the leaflet, but then again, people are responsible for informing themselves before voting in a referendum.
woollyheart · 10/02/2019 19:03

Nothing much about the potential effect on NI was mentioned. The effect on Scotland was mentioned but not taken very seriously. There was very little discussion on the positive influences from the European Union on establishing peace.

woollyheart · 10/02/2019 19:12

People are responsible for informing themselves, but there were very few places to go to get informed guidance. All I saw was hype- very little in depth coverage. It was conducted more like a general election than a referendum.

The coverage was mostly on economic benefit, controlling immigration and taking control of our own future.

The most important concerns to me were maintaining peace and freedom of movement in Europe. That was not really discussed at all in England. Of course, some realised Brexit could have dreadful consequences for NI but this wasn't discussed much at all. When it was it was easily dismissed as scaremongering.

norijunior · 10/02/2019 19:13

Thank you IDoN0tCare, Parthenope and woollyheart. Really appreciate you answering & what you say makes sense, though it doesn't increase my respect for the government!

HateIsNotGood · 10/02/2019 19:21

GFA isn't an EU creation, it was an internationally-brokered agreement that the EU was 'party' to because it involved two of its member states.

The EU was making 'noises' pre-Ref in regards to the pre-EU 'preferences' given to RoI Nationals in the UK (and vice versa).

I believe it is easily possible to adapt 'EU Rules' to accommodate the necessity for an 'open' border between NI/RoI. It is has been made more of a 'difficulty' than it need be because it suits those that want to make 'brexit' as difficult as possible.

Whilst it's possible that some new 'blackmarket' (I can't think what in) might be created, given the geographical extremity of both NI and RoI to EU Central and their technological abilities I would think/imagine/breath unicorns in sunlit uplands that it's completely possible to monitor these possible new 'blackmarkets.

LaurieMarlow · 10/02/2019 21:31

Firstly, the GFA makes leaving the EU very hard

i couldn't see any mention of the impact on the GFA in the government Brexit information leaflet sent out to all households

Firstly, no. The GFA makes leaving the customs union very difficult. The UK could leave the EU, stay in the customs union, NI wouldn't be a problem, the GFA would not be breeched.

NI wasn't mentioned much because no one on the Leave side ever clarified the terms the UK would leave on. Or perhaps more accurately, the future relationship the UK would have with the EU. Staying in the customs union was still very much an option for the UK at that point.

I'll never understand why those who voted leave didn't ask a few more questions at the time about what leaving actually looked like. People talk now like they knew they were voting for a hard brexit, but the leave campaign didn't promise anything of the sort.

FinallyHere · 10/02/2019 21:37

Well put @LaurieMarlow

Hours after the result of the referendum was announced the attached appeared on a social media, i was moved to share it as I just couldn't see any way forward.

The customs union would work, but once we left we would not have any say ...

What would be the point in that. Sigh.

To think most people in the UK don't really care about NI
norijunior · 10/02/2019 21:48

Thank you! But doesn't avoiding a hard border mean staying in the single market, with free movement of people and goods, as well as the customs union? If you stop free movement of people for example, doesn't that mean a hard border? Thanks again.

StreetwiseHercules · 10/02/2019 21:51

“The customs union would work, but once we left we would not have any say ...

What would be the point in that. Sigh.”

What say in the customs union do you want, other than whether to be in it or not? Being in the customs union or having a co-ordinated trade policy and “not having a say” seems to work perfectly well for Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Monaco, Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man, San Marino and Andorra.

FinallyHere · 11/02/2019 07:09

work perfectly well for

Would be interested to know what you meant 'work perfectly well for' the countries you list? How much do you know about their economies? Is you opinion based on the fact that there are no significant reports of civil unrest in those countries protesting their status ?

One thing you will notice that the countries listed all have in common is significant reserves of wealth combined with low tax rates to attract further financial investment.

The UK economy has not historically worked like that. We spent our oil revenues in the '80s on keeping our current artificially high while they held the profits in trust and spend 'only' the interest. Norway's oil wealth is relatively recent and still expanding.

Our economy has been based on import and export. In the colonial days, we did very well out of importing raw materials at lie priced (set by us) from the colonies (cotton, sugar, cocoa etc) processing and reprocessing, keeping the high value added profit for ourselves.

There are some interested parties trying to turn the UK into a low tax rate haven like the countries you have listed. Great if you are very wealthy or manage investment funds (you know who you are)

StreetwiseHercules · 11/02/2019 07:45

“Would be interested to know what you meant 'work perfectly well for' the countries you list? How much do you know about their economies? Is you opinion based on the fact that there are no significant reports of civil unrest in those countries protesting their status ?

One thing you will notice that the countries listed all have in common is significant reserves of wealth combined with low tax rates to attract further financial investment.”

Most of the countries listed have stronger economies and better standards of living than the UK. There is a full range of tax models in there, from high tax Norway to tax haven Monaco.

These countries operate either in formal customs union or by having co-ordinates trade policies. Isle of Man works on a protocol 3 basis.

They all have a say regarding customs arrangements with them EU. They can deal or no deal.

What more of a “say” do you want and need?

StreetwiseHercules · 11/02/2019 07:46

“In the colonial days, we did very well out of importing raw materials at lie priced (set by us) from the colonies (cotton, sugar, cocoa etc) processing and reprocessing, keeping the high value added profit for ourselves. ”

What relevance has that now?

FinallyHere · 11/02/2019 09:36

high tax Norway

Good spot @StreetwiseHercules

I was thinking more about the source of their wealth, which for Norway is clearly oil.

The relevance of much of our wealth coming from the terms of trade in our favour in colonial times is that that way of becoming rich and powerful is no longer available.

We had another high in the economic cycle when the utilities and council houses were sold off in the eighties. Instead of investing the resulting capital and living off the income, what have we done? Overheated the housing market and allowed the gap between rich and poor to widen.

Sigh indeed

FinallyHere · 11/02/2019 12:32

high tax Norway

Good spot @StreetwiseHercules

I was thinking more about the source of their wealth, which for Norway is clearly oil.

The relevance of much of our wealth coming from the terms of trade in our favour in colonial times is that that way of becoming rich and powerful is no longer available.

We had another high in the economic cycle when the utilities and council houses were sold off in the eighties. Instead of investing the resulting capital and living off the income, what have we done? Overheated the housing market and allowed the gap between rich and poor to widen.

Sigh indeed

StreetwiseHercules · 11/02/2019 14:33

Quite. Economic mismanagement of the UK has a legacy for us and our children. Our parents and their parents voted for it and tolerated it. The media wilfully collided and facilitated their ignorance.

We don’t have to. Brexit is the catalyst for change.

An independent Scotland in EFTA and perhaps eventually the EU will be a magnet for business and migration.

A United Ireland in the EU will thrive.

Wales might realise what it is missing and England will be forced to change fundamentally in order to compete and stay relevant.

FinallyHere · 11/02/2019 14:44

I find that analysis quite optimistic

will be forced to change fundamentally in order to compete and stay relevant.

What appears to be lacking is the leadership to, well, lead that change rather than appeal to baser fears of the 'other'. The echoes of the '30 are all too real to me

StreetwiseHercules · 11/02/2019 15:25

It will only happen when it is forced by the breakup of the UK. Westminster politics has failed the UK and all of its constituent nations but it hasn’t failed the Westminster politicians or their media hangers on. Together they are the political class and it suits them just fine.

The break up of the UK will result in significant introspection and change in England’s body politic. In time an independent England will flourish.

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