An adult is saying DS is lying, DS is defiant that he isn't

[ThatMotherHen]

More a what would you do really.

He's a teen with special needs. I don't think he's an angel at all, I'm not one of those but he is usually well behaved and usually very accurate.

Ds came home and told me something I wasn't happy with which was said by an adult. I queried it twice and he told me the same story word for word. Even when he knew I was going to speak to the adult he stuck to the same story.

The adult is saying they didn't say it. Well more along the lines of don't recall saying it. (It's something they would recall and was the same day!)
DS is still insistent and sticking to his story and is furious to be called a liar.

What would you do?

My son has ASD. He can sometimes be very pendantic. He doesn’t lie, however, his judgment can sometimes be a bit off, due to his difficulties, rigid thinking etc and how he truly perceived things.

For example I could shout up the stairs to him, his dinner is ready. He will think I’m angry, because I shouted!

Pick your battles.

'I don't recall' seems to be a bit of a cop out. I think you need to show DS that you believe him. I had an issue years ago with DS2: he was nearly 6 and he told me something that cast MIL's DH (not my DH's DF) in a bad light. MIL told me it wasn't true, it couldn't have been true as she was with them the whole time, etc. She said DS was a liar and I needed to watch him, as he was spreading lies that could have serious repercussions … turned out that DS was telling the truth. So glad I believed him and told him so.

I'd be inclined to believe your DS. Though it is possible he could have misinterpreted what the adult said - you say your DS is generally truthful (My DS is currently being assessed;' we are fairly sure he is on the spectrum, and he is mostly truthful but has form for invention and exaggerating). Unless it was something serious enough to need escalating, probably best to assure your DS that you believe him and that you have spoken to the adult - and make sure the adult is aware that you have marked that adult's card and the saying-inappropriate-things had better not happen again.

"I don't recall" = I said it but i am denying in a way that makes me feel I am not outright lying,

This exactly. We had an issue with the school which could have had sever ramifications on DS's health, potentially requiring an operation. Teacher one: Couldn't recall if she had notified Teacher 2 or not.
Teacher two: Couldn't recall if Teacher 1 had notified her and she had forgotten or if Teacher 1 had never told her.
i.e. both arse covering and making sure no-one could be held to account. I'd be inclined to believe your DS.

Years ago, my son had a vocal tic. Written advice from OT was to ignore it and do x, y, z. I passed this written advice onto school.

Ds told me, every time he did this involuntary tic, his TA told him ‘stop making that stupid noise, it’s annoying’

Tbh it was annoying! I could imagine the TA undoubtedly said it!

I wrote to school, stated what ds had told me, that I appreciate it can be annoying, enclosed OT advice again and requested they follow it. TA of course, said she would never say such a thing. I replied ok, no worries, did you get a copy of OT advice.

More than one way to skin a cat! TA knew that I knew, TA knew that ds would tell me. It was never said again!

'I would tell DS that you believe him, but that the adult either doesn't remember saying it or is embarrassed to have said it so there isn't really anything you can do this time, but that if anything similar is said you will be doing 'x' to deal with it. (Don't know what was said so not sure what is appropriate)'

Thanks that's a very helpful way of explaining.

@HowardSpring My DS does exactly this too (ASD). Drives me insane.

OP, I would suggest the adult does not want to admit they may have been wrong. I always believe my DS because everything is very black and white to him and I also never ever want him to feel that he can't speak up. His recollection may not always be accurate or it might be very rigid. Often somebody's tone can be very much misunderstood and misinterpreted (even mine!) but I would prefer to believe him and then investigate myself. Difficult.

'I don't recall' is generally bullshit in a political/formal setting, but I think it's different socially. As another poster said, it's very difficult to say, point blank, 'no, I absolutely did not say that' because it immediately implies that the accusor is lying and this will often escalate the situation. It's particularly emotive if a child is involved.

'I don't recall', or 'I don't think that sounds like something I'd say', or 'perhaps there's been a misunderstanding'... they all sound woolly, but people do use them to avoid outright conflict, rather than to cover lies.

What’s the motivation for your son to lie?
What’s the motivation for the adult to lie?

'I don't recall' is generally bullshit in a political/formal setting, but I think it's different socially. As another poster said, it's very difficult to say, point blank, 'no, I absolutely did not say that' because it immediately implies that the accusor is lying and this will often escalate the situation. It's particularly emotive if a child is involved.

See I would see this differently, (socially) I think the I don't recall was used because the Adult who said it, knew they had said it, but they weren't sure if anyone else had overheard so are using I don't recall in case they get called out for outright lying because someone else may tell you that actually they did say it.

Another adult talked with DS and told DS they had spoken to the adult and he hasn't said that.

Oooh, I wouldn't like that, it smacks of ganging up. The second adult has no way of knowing who is right.

'I would tell DS that you believe him, but that the adult either doesn't remember saying it or is embarrassed to have said it so there isn't really anything you can do this time, but that if anything similar is said you will be doing 'x' to deal with it.

That's brilliant advice! Supportive yet tactful. I'm always hugely impressed by posters who can manage to make their point without WWIII breaking out, which is my style :( :( :(

I was just thinking the same @tawdrylocalbrouhaha. I often take this stance too. ' I dont recall' is rarely actually true it doesn't mean I did it/said it just I don't want the confrontation.

I would definitely believe that your son believes he heard it. It's possible he slightly misheard or misunderstood but it seems likely the adult said something they feel uncomfortable about, as the "I don't recall" wording is pretty weird.

I liked the suggestion of explaining why adults might feel awkward or embarrassed and might even manage to convince themselves that they didn't say something they did actually say. Do you think he might be interested in a sciency-type book on human behaviour (something like Manwatching or The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris - though there are probably more modern versions)? It might help him get less upset about it if he can understand these foibles from a more logical perspective. My daughter is younger but is autistic too and she needs an explanation for everything.

I’d believe my child but use it as an opportunity to teach them that sometimes people lie (other person), sometimes people misunderstand (possibly child), and sometimes outcomes are not fair. And discuss with my child what they felt the best course of action was and how we should deal with this whole situation.

As pp have said, not recalling something that happened that same day is suspicious. If a teacher doesn’t recall telling little Jimmy to be quiet, then fair enough as it is not remarkable and I would understand not being able to recall saying it, but not specifically denying it as it would be a routine thing to say. If he had said ‘shut up you little shit bag’, you would expect a full denial! So it depends on the context. It’s obviosuly something you consider to be somewhat controversial or it wouldn’t be an issue so you would expect the adult to be in a position to fully deny it.

Do you think he might be interested in a sciency-type book on human behaviour (something like Manwatching or The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris -

Ohhh thanks I will definitely have a look for those! He definitely need books explaining human behaviour.

I think that given the history you've outlined here, it's really important that your son feels like you believe him. You can reassure him of that without having to escalate the situation. As others have suggested you can explain that sometimes people say things that they don't mean, or they don't remember stuff.

RainbowWaffles

Exactly. They would definitely remember what was said as it was that day and included mention of other adults so either they are covering their backs or embarrassed to admit it or don't want confrontation

I believe your son.

Exactly. They would definitely remember what was said as it was that day and included mention of other adults so either they are covering their backs or embarrassed to admit it or don't want confrontation

It sounds very weak. Did you put that to them during the conversation? I would have been minded to tell them that it’s something you would expect them to recall unless they have some kind of memory issue so are they embarrassed or scared or confrontation. It’s a perfectly reasonable response. But it seems you have your answer and a pp has already suggested a great way of dealing with it with your son.

I'm shocked at the responses to the phrase "I don't recall" to be honest. I use exactly that phase and absolutely mean it. At the end of each day I can't remember exactly what words I used in every single interaction I've had. I know if I'm likely to have said it or if its something I would simply never say, but 100% sure of the exact words you've used all day? I don't buy that. Someone who knows they've said something offensive is surely more likely to flat out deny it?

both arse covering and making sure no-one could be held to account

This is why pretty much everything regarding safeguarding or the health and well being of students should be emailed. My memory isn't prefect, but if I've emailed I have a record.

Believe your son.

I'm speculating the adult said something 'unacceptable', like expressing a racist view, making a sexually-inappropriate remark, or just swearing. And they, and their friend/colleague, are now lying through their teeth to protect their own arse.

If your son, who is usually honest, is adamant that it was said and the adult is saying they don't recall then I'd absolutely believe my son.

This is why pretty much everything regarding safeguarding or the health and well being of students should be emailed.
Yes Angela, lesson learnt. But then I was crediting the teachers with some common sense and compassion which was clearly a mistake (incident involved teacher removing a medical equipment and insisting child use a broken limb because she "thought he was just using it as an excuse to get out of the lesson")

I had a ta lie to the head and the head believed her over and battonned down the hatches despite me witnessing the ta’s behaviour. It was a safeguarding situation involving my dd and caused me a number of sleepless nights and tears as the ta wasn’t looking after my dd properly. The consequences could have been devastating.

If this is a school setting, and from convos over Mumsnet over it, it seems it’s how things work. I’m glad you believe your child.