Spelling and Punctuation

[PooleySpooley]

This 500 words competition on Radio 2 for kids

Great - BUT the “spelling, grammar and punctuation don’t matter” thing.

I get why they do it, but this seems to be creeping in a lot more these days and AIBU to think actually they do matter and are an important part of our language?!

www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction

Of course you can. And I do so regularly.

I don't understand why people suggest that creative writing isn't possible if good spelling and grammar are also required.

They aren't saying that. They are saying that SPaG are not needed for good creative writing. Not that good creative writing isn't possible if you need good SPaG.

A child who is good at SpaG will do that automatically anyway; if it doesn't come so easily, there is no reason why, having done the creative work, the author can't go over it afterwards to correct the SPaG.
Well actually, if a child can't 'do' SPaG then it is quite possible they won't spot loads of the mistakes they have made just by checking it.

I think, as a creative writing student and someone who absolutely adores both reading and writing, that I would value a story with some easily-ignored errors more than something written to fit precise grammar rules while losing any sense of voice or individuality. I have more of an issue with spelling, things can be proofread by parents or teachers, but I think grammar is very subjective in the context of storytelling. In academic contexts, yes, I think proper grammar is important. In essays and research papers it is important to maintain certain standards and to write in a specifically structured way. But when writing creatively, colloquially or conversationally? I think "traditional" grammar rules are a lot less relevant. I wouldn't be bothered by a misused semi-colon, some conversational sentence-structure or the use of passive voice if I'm reading something for pleasure.

It's not mandatory though. So if a child is choosing to take part in this competition then it should be more about the creativity. Those who aren't confident in spelling/grammar may be more tempted to apply.

For homework/class work and exams it will matter.

Children who are passionate about reading and writing tend to pick up correct spelling and grammar just through exposure.

I really wish I has been one of those children, I really do!

"Broadsheet newspapers aren't arbiters of what is grammatical" I quite agree. I've seen some appalling use of grammar and even clear spelling mistakes, especially with homonyms.

I've a FB friend who regularly posts spag errors he's spotted in supposedly professional publications.

"No newspaper would knowingly publish with blatant spelling, grammar or punctuation errors though. Ever." Then how is my friend able to post examples I'd say at least 2-3 times a week? Some weeks most days!

"I think SPaG is important and some of the things I read on here are shocking. I know it's only a forum and may be relaxed but sometimes, to me, it hinders comprehension. I know there are people for whom it's difficult but when I read something like:Myself and DH should of went to the hospital but we was busy borrowing stuff to our friends, ect I just give up and exit the thread. Maybe that was an extreme example but it's not far off what I've read on here" I think silverysurfer would agree that we rarely agree! 😂

On this I agree it's PAINFUL reading some posts.

I'm also increasingly seeing he's or even worse hes (which isn't even a sodding word!) instead of "his" it's incredibly jarring.

Also "generally" when I think they mean "genuinely" but it's not always easy to tell - and if you ask you get flamed for being picky!

"You can’t enter a music competition without learning to play the instrument properly.

This is not a comparable analogy." Of course it is!

I'd argue a child with poor arithmetic skills wouldn't do well in a maths competition either.

"I don't understand why people suggest that creative writing isn't possible if good spelling and grammar are also required." Neither do I. Most enthusiastic readers & writers I know also have a good grasp of spag.

"that I would value a story with some easily-ignored errors more than something written to fit precise grammar rules while losing any sense of voice or individuality." Being good at spag doesn't necessarily mean that person will be a poor unimaginative storyteller.

Hmm but most people write on computers which actually have spelling and granmar checkers

LOL.

Witch only work when yew no the rules.

I do think SPaG matters 'even' with creative writing as punctuation at the very least helps the story make sense.

A few years ago, I heard a clip from a radio programme in the 1940's announcing the results of a childrens' poetry competition. No one had submitted an entry good enough to win, apparently. The announcer went on to explain the difference between poetry and doggerel and tell them all to try harder next time.

I don't think we need to go back to that, but I do think there is a middle ground between 'everyone is good enough' and 'no one is good enough.'

It's a mistake to accept spelling and grammar errors. How will they learn good practice if teachers let them get away with poor practice. They need good spag like what I do.

YABU. I’m also an English grad and a primary school teacher, the competition is about creativity not technical accuracy.

You do never start a sentence with “and” or “but”.

Unless for emphasis or effect.

Trouble is, we're preaching to the converted on a thread with a title like this. The same as Pedants' Corner in general!

I understand the view that spelling and grammar may be less important if considering imaginative content. In the excitement to get words on paper, the detail might go awry. I don’t see where the issue is in going back and checking.
Spelling and grammar are important in many jobs and children need to be taught to check for accuracy.
We consider performance management if a staff member repeatedly submits work that is sub standard in terms of spelling and grammar.
Spell check helps but doesn’t pick out frequently misspelled words and typos - manage/mange, fro/for, three/tree, partly/party etc.

No newspaper would knowingly publish with blatant spelling, grammar or punctuation errors though. Ever.

The Guardian gets called the Grauniad because it's full of SPaG errors.

Not knowingly but as I have mentioned before, years ago the Times was reporting on Ted Heath's visit as PM to Paris and said he would be visiting the loo (La Louvre) in the afternoon.

No newspaper would knowingly publish with blatant spelling, grammar or punctuation errors though. Ever.

Hahahahahaha

Does the job of sub-editor even exist anymore?

Certainly doesn't on the online versions.

Does the job of sub-editor even exist anymore

Probably not

*NotHereForThis

I think it’s fine for the purpose of this competition, which is about story telling. A child with an excellent imagination and good storytelling skills shouldn’t lose out because they’re poor spellers.

All writers have editors for that stuff!*

Trouble is that you won’t get a publishing or writing deal in the first place if you can’t spell or use good enough grammar in your pitch or proposal.

@abra1de it's a children's writing competition. They should be encouraged to write creatively even if they are not good at spelling or grammar yet. They will likely learn that later, if not they will work in a job where spelling and grammar are not important or have someone to check this if their thinking is extremely valuable without the spelling and grammar.

My DDs football team allow all to play at 9, rather than just the best players (as they should). This is making the same allowances to encourage more children to write.

@LL81, my comment was directed at the comment made by Nothere about professional authors, not children.