Spelling and Punctuation

[PooleySpooley]

This 500 words competition on Radio 2 for kids

Great - BUT the “spelling, grammar and punctuation don’t matter” thing.

I get why they do it, but this seems to be creeping in a lot more these days and AIBU to think actually they do matter and are an important part of our language?!

Also, a lot of what's thought of as 'proper' grammar (ie. stuff that we were taught at school 20/30/40 years ago) isn't actually correct and is outdated. Nonsense like never splitting an infinitive, never starting a sentence with 'And', singular they, etc, etc. Also known as the Michael Gove method of education. 'Correct grammar' is a nebulous term.

People always say, dyslexia aside etc.

It can be really hard to have the reason for your child's struggle with spag diagnosed. We have no idea what DD1s and it hugely masks what a clever, witty kid she is because trying so hard all the time for so little reward is incredibly difficult.

I would love it if the winner was someone whose spag wasn't great but had a fantastic turn of phrase. Because I guarantee its a child who is rarely praised for their writing and very likely thinks they are stupid.

Eh? When did the rules change?!

You do never start a sentence with “and” or “but”.

What about people like me then who are absolutely shite at Maths?

How do I enter a Maths competition?

*Eh? When did the rules change?!

You do never start a sentence with “and” or “but”.*

Says who?

This is exactly what I mean. There are so many grammar myths that are repeated as gospel. It's perfectly grammatical to start a sentence with 'And' or 'But'.

blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/01/05/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction/

This is exactly what I mean. There are so many grammar myths that are repeated as gospel. It's perfectly grammatical to start a sentence with 'And' or 'But

Pretty sure you would not see this in a broadsheet newspaper.

"I'd argue that getting kids excited about what they're writing, and content, is more important than SPaG at that age. Then get down to SPaG, if you absolutely have to."

I'd argue that NOT correcting errors as soon as they're spotted and teaching the CORRECT spelling or grammar means the WRONG spelling or usage becomes ingrained in the child's mind and harder to correct.

"If you can communicate ideas effectively, does it really matter if they're perfectly presented?" Because poor spag = poor communication. See it on here all the time, posts that are IMPOSSIBLE to understand because they're so poorly worded, even to the point the op then gets incorrect advice that offends them because respondents were UNABLE to understand the issue.

"Totally - unless SEN, Dyslexic etc." Of course, and evidence can be provided if that's the case and reasonable adjustments made. But that doesn't mean NT children shouldn't be expected to ALSO work to the best of their ability and have their spag correct.

"But surely when learning a subject you have to learn the rules.

Spelling and grammar are the scaffolding on which English is built." Exactly!

"I don't have kids so I'm unfamiliar with this sort of child competitive landscape, but are there similar allowances for children with dyscalculia in maths competitions? And children with physical disabilities in sports competitions?" As someone with a child with a physical disability I would say no.

You mean like The Guardian? www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/25/wait-is-that-a-rule-ten-everyday-grammar-mistakes-you-might-be-making

Broadsheet newspapers aren't arbiters of what is grammatical. In fact, newspapers work from their own style guides, many of which differ from each other. That doesn't mean that one choice is more 'correct' than the other.

And I spent 10 years working for a broadsheet newspaper!

There is so much more spag taught in primary school these days than even 8 years ago. To the point when if you ask children what makes a good piece of writing they will come up with grammatical terms rather than concepts like plot and characters. (I had to do this as a supply teacher)

My son was reminded he needed to use a wide range of punctuation to get a score of greater depth in writing. I don’t tend to choose books on the basis of the authors variety of punctuation.

In all GCSEs now, not just English a percentage of the marks (I think 5%) are awarded for spag. So my dyslexic son will start off on a negative score before he even turns over the exam booklet.

If anyone is genuinely interested in the topic, Oliver Kamm's book Accidence Will Happen is really interesting (and well reviewed by broadsheet newspapers!).

But broadsheets do not reflect the diversity of the English language.

I think SPaG is important and some of the things I read on here are shocking. I know it's only a forum and may be relaxed but sometimes, to me, it hinders comprehension. I know there are people for whom it's difficult but when I read something like:Myself and DH should of went to the hospital but we was busy borrowing stuff to our friends, ect I just give up and exit the thread. Maybe that was an extreme example but it's not far off what I've read on here.

I always thought I had a crap education but beginning to wonder now,

I mark a batch of the round 1 entries for this competition most years. You have to give each story a mark out of 10 on 5 different criteria. SPaG isn't one of them but Language is. Spelling mistakes don't make any difference to the marks I give, therefore, and I can reward lovely vocabulary and phrases, but something written as one long sentence with no full stops and no paragraphs wouldn't get a high Language grade from me, though it might do well in a different category. As a PP said, it's the fact that punctuation does affect meaning in a way that spelling really doesn't.

That said, last year it was very clear which children's teachers had been hammering fronted adverbials!

The stories that come in are often wonderfully imaginative. I enjoy them very much and I'm glad they encourage all children to take part.

Broadsheet newspapers aren't arbiters of what is grammatical. In fact, newspapers work from their own style guides, many of which differ from each other. That doesn't mean that one choice is more 'correct' than the other

As a child of journalists, sub editors in fact, I am well aware of this.

No newspaper would knowingly publish with blatant spelling, grammar or punctuation errors though. Ever.

Spelling and grammar are vitally important when communicating using the written word. It's so wrong to suggest they don't matter! I get utterly frustrated with all the arguing against it. Children should definitely be encouraged to learn the rules and not be frightened to use language correctly.

Oh and I'm also an English teacher. I'm a stickler for grammar and spelling when teaching writing. However, I've set my bottom set Year 9s a piece of writing on 'Romeo and Juliet' this week and I won't be correcting the spellings in that apart from the characters' names. That's because the focus of this piece is on their understanding of the play and they have worked so hard to understand it. It would frankly be a bit of a dick move for me to correct all their (many) errors on this piece and it would be counter-productive to their engagement. When I'm marking for writing they know I'm going to correct everything.

So yeah, it's important. But it's not everything.

You can’t enter a music competition without learning to play the instrument properly.

This is not a comparable analogy. Storytelling and SPaG are not the same thing. The latter is a tool which can be used in the creation of the former, but having poor SPaG doesn’t preclude a person from being able to create compelling and vivid stories.

There are times when SPaG are essential, I don’t dispute that. But a creative writing competition for children is not an occasion where it should be prioritised.

Children who are passionate about reading and writing tend to pick up correct spelling and grammar just through exposure.

Not always true at all. Not just dyslexic students either, some people just aren't very visual and don't pick up spelling easily, despite being very articulate and able to use and interpret language at a high level.

I do think spelling and grammar should be taught but there has to be a balance between teaching proper use of language and making the subject dry and boring.

You can’t enter a music competition without learning to play the instrument properly

But you could enter a music competition without being able to write music.

I don't think by holding a creative writing competition where SPAG isn't deemed a priority means that SPAG isn't important in general it just isn't being tested in this particular competition. I think this is a good idea as it enables students who have a flare for creative writing but aren't good spellers to compete and show off their skills.

I agree with KingThistle

My DD has poor SPaG due to a SpLD. I find that the punctuation makes far more of a difference to understanding meaning than the spelling. If you marked up 100% of her spelling mistakes all her work would be covered in red (or purple or green) ink. It would be totally counter productive as she would just lose heart and not want to write anything.

I don’t think it’s true that correct teaching of our language is no longer deemed important. My children are in Year 3 and Year 1. They both have spellings each week to learn and are tested weekly. They are far more aware than I ever was, let alone at that age, of the structure of their writing, including terminology for the various grammatical devices.

I don't understand why people suggest that creative writing isn't possible if good spelling and grammar are also required. A child who is good at SpaG will do that automatically anyway; if it doesn't come so easily, there is no reason why, having done the creative work, the author can't go over it afterwards to correct the SPaG.

Given the current emphasis on this in schools, and the fact that children may well lose out in terms of GCSE grades if they have poor SPaG, we really do them no favours if we say it's not important.

I'm disappointed that my computer doesn't have a granmar checker (OP's 20:59 post). It'd be nice to know how she's doing seeing as we live so far apart
(Sorry OP, couldn't resist!)

On my phone - which doesn’t