To ask previous house owners to pay to sort this out?

[itsabongthing]

A good friend moved into a new home about 6 months ago, it has a wood burning stove.
There was a HETAS (stove governing body/regulator) certificate provided so they assumed all was well.

Recently whilst using the stove the sort of plate but round the pipe fell down. They’d already booked a chimney sweep anyway for the following week so left it.
The chimney sweep came and said the stove installation didn’t look right at all - recommended a stove specialist to come round.

The stove specialist came round - said it was non complaint and unsafe, lots of issues with it. Told them not to use it until it was sorted. Quotes for the work needed but also said to follow up with HETAS.

HETAS taken it very seriously, verified via photos that’s it’s not safe etc.
They have contacted the installer, who then contacted my friend directly.
He’s very apologetic, very upset to have been contacted by HETAS and said that when he left the installation it was compliant. The previous owner of the house is in the building trade and is a friend/acquaintance of the installer, they have worked together before. The installer was very cross with his ‘friend’ because he said he changed the stove after the installation and in doing so, removed an adaptor to the flue leaving it unconnected with a very short stove pipe (one of the issues).
He offered to come and rectify and said he would give the bill to the previous owner - all good.
Then he calls back saying the previous owner says he doesn’t want to pay because the house was sold ‘as seen’. Installer has offered labour for free but really wants cost of materials covered.

Would be really interested on others thoughts on this. Should my friend just pay for the materials to make it compliant so they can use again? Should they pursue the previous owner? Do you think morally/legally he should be liable?

I’d think it’s fraudulent. Caveat Emptor has an exception where the seller actively covers up problems or misrepresents something, which he has. And with him being in the trade, it can be argued he definitely knew what he was doing.

She's the one who should be worried about seeing you!

No I agree about his wife. It was more that I thought she might think my friend was being unreasonable about the whole thing and that would be awkward.
But from the differing responses it seems it’s not that clear cut. I expect they probably will pay because they wouldn’t want to go through small claims court etc, it has taken the shine off the house though! plus the other notch jobs which have come to light

Surveyors can't be expected to know the intricacies of flue fixtures so, unless it was very obviously flawed, I don't think saying the surveyor should have picked up on it is plausible. What matters is that the owner provided a certificate that he knew was invalid and for that reason I would be pursuing him for the cost. It's a really reckless thing to do and, if he's a builder, you can only wonder what other risks he has taken on this house and other people's.

*botch jobs, not notch!

I was of the understanding that if you change a fitted stove you have to have the certificate reissued anyway??

Friend could pay and then make a claim against previous owner through small claims court which is relatively inexpensive.

Also, I’m just going to throw this out there. It’s only the installer’s word that the seller altered it, being that the seller is in the building trade. Surely if seller is in building trade, he’d know the importance of properly installed wood burner and safety hazards

I agree with Adore you have zero proof anything was tampered with. The tradesman could just be covering his own ass. Just pay for the parts and move on.

Installer could also be pulling a fast one and covering up his dodgy installation by blaming previous owner. Why is he offering free labour if he's not to blame? Has anyone else spoken to previous owner or is it installer's word only?

What sort of survey did you have done? A full structural one would have picked this up. In any event, I don't think you have any come back for previous owner. From what you've said, he's done random other bodge jobs on the house so he hasn't deliberately sabotaged when his family were living in the house and at risk.

The day we bought our house the boiler failed. Had new certificant. Nothing we could do. We exchanged. Likewise i think with you sorry

Small claims court may help if the certificate supplied was a fake or didn't apply to the stove in the house, ie a larger one. It may be though that the installer won't want to get involved in a court case against a friend. Good luck with it.

If you think there might have been fraud around the use of the certificate, you could possibly pursue that, but otherwise I don't think you've got much chance. Talk to a solicitor.

Caveat emptor...

I'm assuming the HETAS cert which the sellers supplied was the original one issued by the installer.

The issue is when the alterations (if any) were carried out, and by whom.

Without any proof of you don't really have a leg to stand on. Fraud is only committed if done so "knowingly" so forget the fraud aspect.

You'll just have to suck it up OP. The repairs you describe could be rectified in an afternoon by a registered installer so you're looking at a few hundred at most. Don't know what you're fussing about.

What did the structural survey say? If not picked up then the claim is against the surveyor. If the buyer didn't do a full survey then they are an idiot and have to suck this up.

You could check with your conveyancing solicitor. Maybe a quick phone call?

Lushlemming
The previous owner is in the building trade. Of course he knows the legalities and therefore a case could be had for fraud. A whole bunch of mumsnetters on this thread know you can’t do what he’s done and I don’t expect many of us are in the trade.

What level of survey did they get done?

What was shown on the certificate re size of stove, type of installation etc?

I would say fraudulent certificate, and would ask solicitor

Caveat emptor I am afraid. For £300 odd quid its up to your friend whether she can be arsed with the hassle of the small claims court. Personally I would pay it and put it down to experience, but each to their own. He sounds a prince among men - not!

The previous owner is likely to be liable for something as the certificate they provided was bogus. There is in law a requirement that the seller does not conceal intentionally anything that could later be proven to be likely to have made the sale unlikely. Like neighbour disputes. They have to be disclosed. If they are not disclosed, the seller is held responsible and has to pay some decided sum.

A couple of months after we moved into a bungalow we discovered a massive damp problem where the shower in the bathroom hadn't been fitted correctly and water had seeped behind the tiles, soaking the back of the broom cupboard and the living room wall. It was pretty plain from the scale of the damp that this had been happening for ages, and the previous owners had re-painted ("touched up!") the walls very very soon before we moved in so we were certain they knew about it. We took it up with the surveyor for not spotting the damp, as the survey we'd paid for should have picked it up. They did the usual "we couldn't possibly have spotted that, it's not our fault" spiel but did refund us the cost of doing the survey, which we used for repairing the damage.

I'd definitely suggest contacting your surveyor about it.

Your friend should pas that bak to her solicitor and ask him what he suggest would be the right and / or the easiest thing to do.

It sounds as though the paperwork supplied was not correct, so she would have grounds to insist he paid for the repair, that is fraud and, as it could have endangered lives, it could be as serious one for him if he is a builder! personally I would have at him, he and his business have more than £300 to lose if his reputation is tarnished like that!

But only a solicitor can tell her for certain.

For £300 the hassle of going to the small claims court just isn't worth it.

I'd be surprised if the previous owner would be liable. The certificate just states that the stove was installed correctly, there was no warranty given by the seller regarding later changes, damage, wear and tear etc.