Teacher thinks cahms will solve everything

[Grubsmummy]

My son is nearly 8. He has always been full of beans and loud. He shows a few traits of adhd and doesn't manage well in school, he shouts out answers and is loud. He is never naughty and he is a lovely kind boy. At home we accept him as he is and we can take him anywhere and know he will behave, recently sat on two 10 hour flights, never heard a peep out of him.
School pushed me to get him referred for cahms, my son attended the appointment which lasted 2 hours, again sat quietly. They wanted to discharge there and then but i pushed to try and get abit of help. They agreed to do a school observation which is this Wednesday.
The man did explain to me tho that because he is not severe enough there can't be a diagnosis etc. We agree with this.
Teacher spoke to me today to tell me of the observation and expressed that she hopes it'll all be sorted soon and they can help him with medication or coping tips etc. I explained to her that they've already told me there's nothing they could do anyway.

I know my son is annoying in the classroom environment but aibu to be getting a bit peed off that people want to fix him? I know he's my son but I think he's amazing! People comment to me all the time what a lovely lad he is. It breaks my heart because he is aware of all this going on. The past few years have caused me so much stress my periods stopped and I started losing my hair. I have terrible headaches and feel very anxious alot of the time and its all due to his teachers!!
If anybody could give me any advice how to deal with the school moving forward I'd really appreciate it. We've always done everything the teachers ask and I've never pushed back but my sons self esteem is taking a battering. We speak to him all the time about his behaviour and it never changes even though he wants to please people. That's why we suspected adhd

Thank you OhTheRoses.

I have another well behaved school child. I do understand the impact a Disruptive child has. I am not stupid.

Do you think I want him to be like this? Do you think I want the constant aggravation and judging? Do you think I want my sons self esteem to be completely battered?
I am willing to do absolutely anything to stop this and make my son and his fellow classmates lives easier.

The whole point of my post is there is no help! A diagnosis is just a label. It doesn't change him.
The school and ourselves have tried everything there is to try and nothing changes him. How are we responsible for that?
And for those saying about older teenagers parents making excuses for their kid etc, I don't and never have made excuses.

I acknowledge his problems at all times and have always had a positive relationship with the school and done everything they have asked.
I am allowed to say that my child has good points because he is my child who I love. Just because he shouts out answers in class does not mean to me that he is a lost cause, who should be pushed out of school or made to feel bad about something that seems to me, his teachers and to cahms that it is out of his control.
I shall not be commenting further on this post as some of your posts are damn right nasty about a 7 year old child. And it is people like you with your perfect children that make people feel so horribly judged.

@Grubsmummy I am gobsmacked at some of the awful comments re parenting etc. What a shocking lack of understanding and knowledge about SEN

I totally disagree that a diagnosis is just a label though, I think that is a really damaging attitude, especially to the child involved.

My DS has ASD/ADHD and since diagnosis everyone has a much better understanding of him and we can all work together to ensure his needs are met, and also to help him behave in a way that doesn't impact others. Without diagnosis he is just a child who can't concentrate, who overreacts to minor issues etc. Sometimes certain children need allowances to be made (in a controlled way of course) but if it was bad parenting rather than an actual issue then why should school make allowances IYSWIM. To me that is the very important difference, and I think it is clear from your posts it is most definitely not bad parenting.

I can't imagine why anyone would suggest he is a lost cause. Surely with the help of you, CAMHS and the school he can get the help he needs. You need to be 100% honest to CAMHS though. I hope you get the support you need one way or another though.

Jesus bigdreams you sound horrible. My ds is the only child with a statement in his primary school and there are 3 on the SEN register. If you really did laugh out loud there’s something wrong with you. Laughing and sneering at a parent who is concerned about her SEN child? Telling her to woman up? That’s not big or clever, it shows an astonishing lack of empathy.

OP, diagnosis isn’t just a label. It’s a key to support and to your DS understanding his own difficulties and forgiving himself when he doesn’t fit in. It’s also a way of explaining his difficulties to others. Without the Sen label he will be labelled naughty or difficult.

You say ‘there is no help’...there is, but you have to fight for it. It isn’t just going to be offered. It’s a sad fact. You’re going to have to roll your sleeves up and be prepared to fight to get your sons needs met and do so over and over again throughout his education. It’s shitty but if you don’t, he might well become an adult who hates himself and doesn’t understand the world.

Your school doesn’t sound at all supportive or as though they have much SEN experience so I’d look at other options I think.

I think the key thing about the diagnosis process, even if it doesn’t lead to a diagnosis is that it can really shed light on what is going on and as such how to support.

If you and school haven’t managed to figure it rjen hopefully a professional coming in with fresh eyes will be able to figure what is going on

My ds is the only child with a statement in his primary school and there are 3 on the SEN register. If you really did laugh out loud there’s something wrong with you. Laughing and sneering at a parent who is concerned about her SEN child?

She laughed at the figure of 3 children in 300 having SEN. She considers that highly unlikely. Given dyslexia alone is considered present in 1 in 10 people, Autism one in 100, and ADHD in about 4% of the population, 3 children in a whole school of 300 with SEN is pretty much an impossibility.

In the OP's case, it is clear that the school consider SEN is present. CAMHS don't. What is it you expect the school to do? Attempt to protect the learning of all their students or focus on just one? The balancing act is very difficult. A child who is able to sit without any issue at all for 10 hours on a plane but is a nuisance in a classroom presents a problem. It suggests the behaviour in school is deliberate. It sounds like the school are using all the usual techniques to try and engage and motivate the child. It is not too much to expect the parents to try and work with them, is it?

I was having a conversation in school the other week (I'm a governor and was in doing a link governor subject visit before anyone queries me being privy to the anonymised numbers involved) about the difficulties comparing like-for-like in terms of schools saying they have "X number of kids on the SEN register". Some schools put a child on there the second they're accessing any intervention whatsoever - even if it's just Mrs Smith's spelling group whereas our school puts them on when they're at a certain level on the continuum of need. I don't think we have many formally "on the register" (one of my kids is) but we have a lot accessing various different interventions and adaptations across the school for a multitude of things.

My daughter I mentioned up-thread who behaves in quite a similar fashion to the OP's child is NOT on the SEN register (personally have a suspicion there are at least some well-masked ASD traits in there - as well as a strong and highly anxious personality) but does access things like a nurture group and social skills support - despite her being academically one of the high-fliers in her cohort. I'm very grateful we've got a school who acknowledges she can bring out the working at greater depth assessments till the cows come home but she does need support in these other areas and will support her in that - it's one reason we moved her school because I think she would have just butted heads and backed herself completely into a corner and destroyed her self esteem (again it's very very fragile despite her masking it well) at her previous school where they wouldn't have given a shit about the emotional stuff as long as academically she was bringing home the bacon.

"It suggests the behaviour in school is deliberate."
Or it suggests that they may be struggling with the environment or the work or the way they are expected to work or that they need more individual support.
They need to be properly assessed in the school environment.

I'm another with the opposite problem . My dd is ok in school but acts up at home. I've been back and forth to professionals since birth ( starting with sleeping ).

Finally, I saw a psychiatrist who said straightaway that she thought she had ADHD so we sent all the forms off but, as the school didn't perceive her to have problems, the diagnosis was rejected. It is interesting someone on here said a private clinician helped as I wondered about the cost and how to go about it.

I feel your frustration and judgement, op. Mine is 14 now. She doesn't want a diagnosis so I'm leaving her be for now as she has calmed down on the mental health front. Camhs did suggest a Family Support Worker via the school, which we haven't taken up yet. She has also had cbt and is in a counselling group at school. It seems odd your school doesn't know about this unless it's private?

I would say the suggestion for an Educational Psychologist is a good one as is changing schools to one that seems more knowledgeable

Don't understand the parent blamers on this thread.

If a child is well behaved everywhere APART from school, it's not a parenting issue is it? It's a school issue. There's something about the school environment that isn't working for this little boy.

To be fair OP the school sound clueless. Have they told you what things they have tried already to support your DS? I don't mean punishments or praise or consequences, as clearly they aren't having an effect, which suggests the behaviour is outside of his control. I mean tried and tested techniques to support a child with suspected ADHD.

Maybe school just doesn’t suit him? Not all children do well in a classroom environment.

It doesn’t suggest to me that the behaviour can be controlled. It suggests that the classroom environment is one he isn’t coping with and adjustments need to be made.

OP, has your son ever seen an occupational therapist? If his behaviour in school is really problematic, but not in calmer environments, then you need to look at why that might be, and though an OT may find nothing of concern, just as a process of elimination, I think it would be worth doing.

Other posters have mentioned sensory processing stress - this isn't unusual in schools for kids with those problems. If it's not been considered, then I'd approach the GP and ask for a referral, explaining context. Something is causing this, and it would be an avenue worth exploring. Sensory processing problems are relatively newly understood, and a lot of schools just aren't aware of them.

Hi OP, firstly here's a huge unmumsnetty hug. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate. Have you thought about posting this in the SN boards?
Firstly I would be asking for a meeting with the SENCo and class teacher. If your son is on the special needs register I would be asking what needs they have identified and what provision is in place to meet these needs. For example they say he is disruptive but what are they doing to support him with this? What strategies have they already tried etc? You can ask if he has an IEP or provision map. If he hasn't got one, why not?
Secondly I would be asking for a referral to an educational psychologist. It could be that your son is frustrated with aspects of his learning, struggling with certain things or not being stretched enough so is bored. An EP assessment will give you a profile of strengths and weaknesses. A plan can then be devised where your sons strengths can be used to improve his weaknesses.
Thirdly I would ask for a referral to an occupational therapist via your GP. OT can explore sensory and motor difficulties and also look at core strength etc. All of these things can effect the way a child behaves in the classroom. OT can provide the school with advice of what they can do to support your son, if that is what he needs.
Im not an expert but I don't believe your son is a naughty child. It sounds to me that he is struggling to cope in a mainstream classroom and his behaviour is the result of his needs not yet being identified or met. School shouldnt be placing pressure on you to rectify this. Put the ball back in their court and ask them for a referral to an educational psychologist, to help determine a way forward.

If he doesn’t meet the threshold for CAMHS and there is no SN then his behaviour is a choice.

At the moment it seems the root cause for him is attention (rather than power or revenge) as it is “annoying” rather than threatening behaviour.

There’s a good App “you can handle them all” which is a discipline directory really based on a book and it gives advice about all different kinds of behaviour.

I think personally you cut out the chat and discussions about “why” he did something and just issue a small consequence every single time. Perhaps ask the teacher to tally the number of times he calls out during a day for example and then say he calls out 8 times before lunchtime he loses 8 minutes

of free time. The consequence has to be small and repetitive enough for him to weigh up in his mind that it is not worth his while doing that behaviour.
You could do it with pennies at home. Tell him he earns 50p a day, but you are removing 1p for every time he shouts out in school. The key is not to run out and for him to see that that specific behaviour will be responded to at home.

Also you can ask for support from your local SEN support team. Have a google of (your local area) information and advice for Send. It should also be listed on your councils website under their local offer.
They can be useful for communicating with school, support during meetings and explaining your options and the schools legal obligations.
You could also ask the school if they would consider applying for an Education Health and Care Plan for your son. This route could secure funding for your son to help meet his needs if school cannot do so, eg he needs 1:1 support from a TA. It is a legal document and will outline all of your sons strengths, needs and provison.

A friend of mine is going through similar with her 7 year old. The school she is at had been very supportive. Her DS had been diagnosed as stuck in the 'flight or fight mode'. Please google, children stuck in the fight or flight mode. You may recognise some of the signs in your son's behaviour.

My friend's son is currently having therapy for tbe above and she has been giving lots of exercises to do at home. Even putting band around the bottom of his chair for him to kick against to help control his impulse to get up and wander off around when something catches his eye.

Good luck OP.

OP, have you considered that your reaction against the school and assessment is essentially the emotion and denial about a possibility that your DS might have SEN, is not perfect as you say?
I mean it in the nicest way, as a mother of DC with ADHD, ASD. I know what it's like, you are having a hard time. Hug and

Having ADHD, any SEN, has nothing to do with being perfect (nobody is, some apparent 'angels' could be quite troublesome), nothing at all to do with being naughty and unkind, being disliked (you know the speculation that Richard Branson has ADHD?). To the contrary, some diagnostic evidence could involve being perceived 'naughty', disruptive (which your DS clearly is as you complain that bullies at school get less criticism than your DS) because of behaviours due to ADHD which the person cannot help, are not deliberate, are due to a disability. You are aware that ADHD is a disability, not an ASBO? You don't need to be defensive.

Diagnosing, recognising a disability could start to address the problems, to provide reasonable adjustments and to protect the person with disability, which otherwise, without that protection is open to judgement and consequences of being perceived 'naughty', the stigma of being disruptive, antisocial and dysfunctional.

Perfect, naughty, unkind, bully, disliked - all those words you mention do not reflect ADHD, they reflect your insufficient understanding of it and the issues surrounding it (forgive me, but I have to say that. That's how your posts come across to me and this is not helpful for your DS). As a mother of a child with potential SEN you need to clue up, read up on the issues of ADHD, SEN process at school, disability.

Having SEN / disability does not mean being 'bad', 'defective', many children with SEN are very bright and do well in education and in life. It means functioning differently and for this reason requiring the environment to be adjusted to avoid a disadvantage for oneself.

You need to re-examine your own conception of these issues. All this 'upper class' thing is b@&%x. Leafy schools have plenty of ASD, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia and other things. 3 out of 300 is probably those with EHCPs, the overall % of SEN is around 12-15%. Recently somebody told me that Westminster school is a special school in disguise for undiagnosed ASD, Lol. All schools must be trained and do provisions, they do have to find up to £6000 from their existing budget to support your DS and you need to grab and shake them so they see you mean business. It is the job of being a parent of a child with SEN.

If your DS has ADHD, denying it will not eliminate the problem. To the contrary it will snow ball and escalate with the consequences for your DS, not the teachers. This disability would have a pervasive effect on everything in his life. Recognising it might give him the key, the awareness and understanding of how to mitigate it. Hopefully it could provide medication that will not solve everything, but be a huge step forward. Undiagnosed and unrecognised ADHD's impact will increase with age and the dynamic could become quite counterproductive, he may become more troubled and troublesome and fail at school, develop some other problems like addictions, antisocial behaviours, conflicts and worse, if he is left unsupported. There is a very big bad downside in denying diagnosis and medication if your DS indeed has ADHD. Anxiety and ASD as the underlying reason might also be on your radar (anxiety is fight or flight reaction).

I am not a doctor, but from your posts he sounds like a case of ADHD with all the symptoms and criteria. He has continuous daily incidents at school for years. In your own words at home you also struggle with his behaviour, that 'something' daily for years and nothing helps, even though your parenting and environment is fine as evidenced by other children of yours. You sound so stressed and drained emotionally, clearly it's not all zen at home. I was continuously on the edge before my DS got medicated. As it was said above, at home 1:1, in a very structured consistent environment you might underestimate his symptoms.

One possible reason that CAMHS told initially that he does not qualify is based on your own reports and questionnaires. He is your child, he is perfect for you and this is absolutely correct. Symptoms are not value judgements. But being so close to him, you might not realise, might underestimate the severity of symptoms at home and other places. In this thread you said how you struggle with him at home, yet, you don't seem to report that to CAMHS. If you did he would have met the criteria of several settings. If you consider dispassionately many of his behaviours at home and going out, you might recognise it.

You mentioned that he has average ability. How do you know? Do you have a cognitive assessment by an Educational Psychologist? Or do you just mean he has average attainment? What if he is very bright and is underachieving because of ADHD? His behavioural problems will have an effect on his education, even if not ADHD. He meets the definition of SEN anyway..

If the school are referring him to CAMHS and are pushing, this is great for your DS, they are trying to help, he is on SEN radar, I would grab it with both hands. Most parents of children with SEN are fighting with the school to recognise SEN and make provisions. Your Senco comes to you. Take it and start discussing what provisions they are making / could make at school. Ask for his Individual Educational Plan, ask for an Educational Psychology assessment, OT assessment, ASD assessment (?). Get a copy of the SEN code of practice if you don't already have one, talk to SOSSEN and get your plan in order of getting the provisions at school. The school needs to make provisions. Changing schools now will delay assessments, you need to document SEN and diagnose your DS in this school, then you could move. But you need to fight to get medication (if indeed he has ADHD) as it would make huge difference.

I am sorry I am giving you a bit of tough love. Your DS needs you to grapple with that. Try to relax and don't be hard on yourself and others . SEN is a long term struggle.

Both my sons are boisterous at home (very !) but they do know to tone it down at school

I really feel for you OP and him

I would try and incentive approach (assuming he has no issues )

He is old enough to hopefully learn that he has to adapt his behaviours

Put down some DO and DONT and agree what a clean week gives and a bad week takes away? Agree a simple way to stay in
Communication with teacher , let them know you are trying to manage this ?

Feel for you. But clearly his life will be better if he follows some
Simple guidelines ?

But I also agree with cakes and tea and another PP

So my lovely family member is on the spectrum . Also hated and struggled with school . His behaviour was OK but he got very very unhappy which was an issue in itself as no one wants a sad child

So maybe persist and explore if he has something ‘mild’ . It won’t fuck his life up
It will however open the door to better techniques and coping mechanisms

And as a PP said it’s awful this is making you ill and losing hair. That’s not right

I also agree that in a more diverse school you would get better support . Our school is lovely but way more mixed and more understanding and I think acceptance of this

The focus is getting him through education and getting yourself calmer . Neither of you are thriving and you deserve that

When you have quiet moment read the thread and highlight some
Of the advice and thoughts

Wishing you the best

I’m an ex teacher who worked with more challenging pupils and there were a few who were stuck in the good at home but not in the classroom situation. For some it was the group dynamic and another child was winding them up, others there was so much pressure on them to behave, they just couldn’t and some it was to mask academic issues.
If I were you I’d consider moving him to a different school, it seems he’s stuck in a behaviour pattern and now he’s got a label so possibly the teachers are more focused on his behaviour and picking up on every minor issue. A fresh start in a school that’s good a dealing with sen and behaviour issues would solve or significantly improve the issues.

This sounds like a very frustrating situation for you OP. I work 1:1 TA in a mainstream primary school with a 7 year old child who continually calls out and is disruptive in class. The impact on the whole class is massive and very frustrating for the everyone. We have lots of strategies in place to try and support him and to minimise the impact on the other children - this includes taking him out of the class at appropriate times (to do lots of positive behaviour type work and physical exercise). Sorry to hear that CAHMS can't help you but to be fair they are absolutely stretched to the limit. Many mainstream schools are really struggling with the amount of SEN (diagnosed and non-diagnosed) children they are being expected to deal with and budgets are at breaking point. If the school aren't being supportive I would definitely consider looking around for another setting. A different approach may help him. Sadly without a diagnosis the school will not be able to access funding for 1:1 support and with up to 30 children in the class it will be hard to give him that individual support he obviously needs. Do they run any Nurture or Emotional Literacy groups which he could access? As for the school claiming they only have 3 SEN children (out of 300) - I'm afraid that's rubbish and they're probably just including children with an EHCP. In my class of 28 I can immediately think of 8 children who have additional needs in terms of learning or behaviour - 3 of these have an official diagnosis. Good luck on this journey.

OP your DS sounds identical to my 10yo when he was 8 - he is still a bit like it now.
Like your DS he is kind, friendly, not a bully etc, but finds it hard not to shout out and gets over excited. There have been suggestions previously of adhd, although teachers have been contradictory in their view on this. He does have a few impulse control issues at home (board games can be hard, as can limits on gaming), but can be easily reasoned with these days.

Teachers (and me) have varied in their approach. Things that have worked well:

Sitting him on a table on his own to prevent distractions - he actually prefers this as he sees a real impact on his work levels.
Monitoring behaviour very closely between home and school, and making it very clear that the teacher and I are in constant contact about good and bad behaviour. Every few months we have a week where we both monitor him closely and inform the other.

At home we are now quite strict 're interrupting conversations, demanding things etc. He does so because he gets so over excited about what he's doing, so its hard to squash his enthusiasm, but we are trying to be tough.

Like you OP I have another DC who is angelic in school -go figure!

Good luck.

If he got a reward for behaviour on a school trip then 99 times out of 100 that only means not as bad as usual.

However from the description either he has some SEN, or he's simply badly behaved.
The school sounds very supportive. Do you know how hard it is to get CAMHS help? My dd's been on the list for 18 months and hasn't hit the top yet. She's been having suicidal thoughts, so considered mid priority.
You need to work with the school.

Aibu can be an awful place for people criticising your parenting skills, everyone on here has perfect kids who respond to basic parenting techniques.
Your Ds does sound amazing and you are obviously a lovely mum as you are on here because you care.
I'm pretty sure the other kids are used to him shouting out and understand. In the big wide world it takes all sorts and we don't all operate like robots.
People are scared of different because they don't understand it. Quick to put a label on anbody who isn't a round peg.
I wonder what all these kids will be like as adults? Will we even be able to tell the class clown?