Teacher thinks cahms will solve everything

[Grubsmummy]

My son is nearly 8. He has always been full of beans and loud. He shows a few traits of adhd and doesn't manage well in school, he shouts out answers and is loud. He is never naughty and he is a lovely kind boy. At home we accept him as he is and we can take him anywhere and know he will behave, recently sat on two 10 hour flights, never heard a peep out of him.
School pushed me to get him referred for cahms, my son attended the appointment which lasted 2 hours, again sat quietly. They wanted to discharge there and then but i pushed to try and get abit of help. They agreed to do a school observation which is this Wednesday.
The man did explain to me tho that because he is not severe enough there can't be a diagnosis etc. We agree with this.
Teacher spoke to me today to tell me of the observation and expressed that she hopes it'll all be sorted soon and they can help him with medication or coping tips etc. I explained to her that they've already told me there's nothing they could do anyway.

I know my son is annoying in the classroom environment but aibu to be getting a bit peed off that people want to fix him? I know he's my son but I think he's amazing! People comment to me all the time what a lovely lad he is. It breaks my heart because he is aware of all this going on. The past few years have caused me so much stress my periods stopped and I started losing my hair. I have terrible headaches and feel very anxious alot of the time and its all due to his teachers!!
If anybody could give me any advice how to deal with the school moving forward I'd really appreciate it. We've always done everything the teachers ask and I've never pushed back but my sons self esteem is taking a battering. We speak to him all the time about his behaviour and it never changes even though he wants to please people. That's why we suspected adhd

At home he is very good at sharing. We've got lots of games. He had 10 for Xmas. We play them together as a family. He can take turns. He never pushes in.

He doesn't butt in conversations. If he does occasionally he is reminded straight away.

Punishments have always been consistent. Thanks for all your comments.

As I say I do have another child at school with no issues and I wouldn't want a disruptive child in her class so I really am not making excuses for him at all. I just don't know what else to do.

In that case I would say if he can hold an answer in when playing a board game and allow someone else to answer he is capable of doing it in class.
I would be treating it as problem behaviour myself and escalating consequences calmly and with a full explanation of why until he starts making better choices at school.

Does he stay seated, no drinks/snacks whilst playing games at home?

I'm a bit curious as to what the issues were when he was nursery age and what other behaviours present in class asides from shouting out answers. That alone is an issue, but I do wonder what else is going on to have been given lists of all bad things on a daily basis for the last 5 years.

OP I don't want to upset you but in many schools an award for good behaviour is code for "you're normally badly behaved but have had a short period of better behaviour"

He doesn't need fixing but it may be for everyone's benefit that he learns ways of managing his own behaviour better. Some children are more ' difficult' at school because of the different environment or because the close management you give at home isn't available at school. He may need help with that and it is better not to stand in the way of it.

I have been where you are OP. He went to a Junior School for 'nice children' (Head teacher's words.) She tried to get us to remove him. Instead we asked for involvement from the behaviour management team. It was then that we realised that behaviour management strategies require consistency. If the teacher isn't committed it doesn't work. His Year 5 teacher was great and his behaviour improved during that year only to take a nose dive with his Year 6 teacher.
It is easy to blame the parents, but you aren't with him at school. All you can do is be as supportive of the school, and work with them, not against them.
Our story improved at secondary school when D'S was diagnosed, age 12, with Aspergers. He continued to be a pain, but his school were committed to helping him. By the time he left he was behaving well.

CAMHS is for mental health issues so I'm confused why a teacher is insisting on their involvement if there is no mental health problem such as depression or anxiety.

CAMHS services vary according to area. Some do the ASD/ADHD assessments.

Ah ok, thanks @DobbinsVeil

If been pondering. Could it be the actual classroom environment that is overstimulating him. If he's calm at home and

Would non distraction methods work like ear defenders, screen around his desk, movement breaks outside

CAMHS is for mental health issues so I'm confused why a teacher is insisting on their involvement if there is no mental health problem such as depression or anxiety.

CAMHS covers a variety of issues and some areas have CAMHS which cover ASD and ADHD, and difficult behaviours, including assessments. There are also Learning Disability CAMHS support as well as dealing with many mental health issues.

...Sorry, I see someone else has said similar!

Hi, sounds very frustrating. Sorry you are going though this.

I don't think you will like my suggest but stick with me though this ... change schools.

So I have a child with a diagnosis of ADHD and Autism, to be honest it's just a label and not sure why the teacher thinks that would solve anything. My child was violent, he paid throw things, bite (to the point we had to start him having a course of hep b injections), scream, run away, he would self harm and generally it's was impossible for the school (and is to manage). He attended a pupil referral unit, the youngest child they had had at the time, it was awful. School were resistant to take onboard anything I said and if I pointed out behaviour was caused by something (like playing music to trigger tidy up time) they work just tell me that everyone else in the class enjoyed it and he needed to learn to conform.

It was hell. He was hell. When one of my others showed signs of SEN (although total opposite of his brother and wouldn't harm a fly) I just really struggled. There were numerous reasons for wanting to move but the biggest factor was I wanted to see if a school with better training and resources would help. It wasn't easy, the school we decided on and moved to be in the catchment of, were very resistant to accept him given his issues, which meant he was 9 months out of school with 4 hours home tutoring a week. It actually turned out to be a god-sent miracle. She focus on proving him with successes. She did work well below his capabilities which is drastically low anyway, but she wanted him to experience feeling successful. At this point he was 7 and couldn't read, write, his maths was very very basic. It was shocking because all we had done for years is concentrate on his behaviour.

He started school in September 2018. He has never once been in trouble, he has lots of friends, he's completely caught up with all his work and working within the expected level for his age and even above sometimes. He's never laid a finger on anyone, never thrown anything. He is very very well liked. His teacher cried when he moved up in September and regularly comes to visit him and him her. His new teacher and teachers assistant are the same, they adore him.

It's such a shocking difference. The only difference was sometime taking the time to believe in him. I think as a mother I made things so much worse, when he did something wrong at school we would tell him off at home , school would tell us we had to take treats away from him as punishment and so we would.If I reflect too much on that time I truly hate the mother I was, I so wanted to fix his behaviour and support the school that I didn't realise the damage of constantly being told off did. Even when we praised him for good things, it was shrouded by the bad things too.

The point was school wanted him to conform. But they were unwilling to accept he couldn't. In comparison the current school talked to him and me about his struggles and came up with plans. For months he didn't attend assembly as he couldn't cope, then he would attend for 5 minutes and his teacher would sit with him in the floor and leave when he needed to, it's very slowly built up and now he attends with everyone else and you wouldn't ever know there was a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I think my currently school do far far more than I would expect anyone to do. They really are outstanding and I do a lot of work at the school and volunteer as I am so grateful for everything. I wouldn't have expected anywhere near the level of support they give to him but it has been so worth it. Is incredible the change. When the school was inspected I asked them to read his statement (we are in Wales so still have statements), then meet him. They actually asked to see me after because they couldn't believe it was the same child.

Sorry about the novel.

My other child saw CAHMS recently too, who on paper meets the criteria for ADHD but they didn't feel it fitted having met him. He has some significant issues but he will sit for hours spinning a wheel or sucking his thumb (he's 7), and it didn't really meet their or my expectation of ADHD, they also did a class observation although I am not sure how that went yet. Feel free to message me if you have any questions.

My question to you is, is the only "difficult" behaviour shouting out? Does he do that at home? What have school done to try and manage that?

Wait for the assessment and take it from there. If it really is a case of "problematic" behaviour in one specific environment only, then that does suggest it is an environmental issue and if the environment were modified in some way it would resolve or reduce.

You can't deal with that until an outsider with fresh perspective and expertise has conducted their observation. Hold off worrying until after then.

Sounds like the school should have addressed the behaviour earlier especially if he only acts out at school

I'm the opposite to be fair I've had issues with my son for years the school say he is fine no issues yes he is a bit slow in writing and performance but the brains are there I tell them there is a disconnect between the work that comes out of his mouth and what goes on the page nope he is fine excellent etc etc every year last year the teacher saw what I meant but he was fine it's ok they can deal with boosting his confidence this year is year 5 and it's a big jump in work expectations I prewarned the teacher he may have to chivvy him along a bit but not to worry he would be fine as all the other teachers said parents evening hit and boy oh boy he went on one I sat there in my best listening pose while he told me everything I had been telling the teachers for years he is frustrated as ds is intelligent he detailed that it took almost five days to do a piece of work three short paragraphs long and he raved about how if he wanted him to get dressed for pe he needed to tell him two lessons prior just so he would be ready on time I calmed him down telling him he was preaching to the choir and I understood and well what are WE going yo do about it upshot is the education psychologist is coming in to see him soon

Op I get where your coming from it's hard when you see one thing and they see another

As a Senco, your comments made me think carefully. I have met many many children like your DS over the years, parents say they are no problem at home, school must be exaggerating or not able to manage them.
When the parents then go to CAMHS, they give a different picture of the child that school sees, so the child doesn't get a diagnosis. In that case, the most common reason for their behaviour is due to parenting issues.
I have no doubt that the fact that your child was able to sit for so long in a plane was down to the access he had to technology. And the fact that he was going on holiday, getting his own way, having your undivided attention etc.
Another thing you talk about is the SEN children in the school. You have absolutely no way of knowing which children have SEN unless you personally know all the parents. Listening to playground gossip is not having the facts.
School are concerned enough to have made a referral, you should listen to them.

Soontobe60 OP has listened to them for five years FIVE YEARS just in case you missed that bit five years of moaning and nothing else they should have acted sooner

Is he on the 'go' a lot at home?

I just wonder whether it might be some form of sensory processing issues, have you considered this?

My daughter does not have ADHD but she does need to move all of the time due to sensory processing issues.

CAMHS can't fix everything. In our area they only diagnose and offer zero treatment to those with a diagnoses.

You are being incredibly naive. 1:1 at home is completely different to dealing with 30 different abilities, needs and behaviours. If you think you'd do a better job, train to be a teacher. I can tell you that it is unbelievably hard every day.
There is no way there are 3 Sen children in a school of 300. I actually laughed hysterically at that. I work in a school of 100 kids. I have 7 kids with sen in my class alone: adhd, autism, global delay and medical. Over 30 send children in the school with 4 kids with ehcps. Your son will not be celebrated for being a lovely lad when he's affecting everybody else. He could have a massive effect on the future of others. Many time off and become disengaged when some kids take over the show. This isn't right and it's having a massive impact on education and society. WOMAN up and get a reality check. It's not cute or clever. It's selfish.

Is there any chance if this has been going on for 5 years and is situational to a classroom he's learnt Thai behaviour through negative reinforcement?

Daily discussion is a lot.

Have you tried ignoring him totally? If he calls it don't even act as if you've heard him and praise a child with hand up and ask them to answer?

Sometimes children get so much discussion about their behaviour they actually begin to feel that's who they are and also who they should be. If every evening discussion is about behaviour and every morning before school then he actually needs to keep it this behaviour to know he'll get discussion and attention.

Don't discuss the behaviour. Brush it off. And if he says "I did x today" shrug and say something g like "you'll get into trouble then" and change the subject.

The behaviour obviously does have to stop. Others education can't be affected. But I do think it needs to stop becoming the whole of his life

He sounds very like DD1. Again - not a bad bone in her body - but very full on and struggles with things like not shouting out.

Took her teacher last year to make the connection with her - it's totally anxiety driven. She's so desperate to get the right answer and do it all "right" her head gets completely in a muddle and the filter between her brain and her mouth fails spectacularly and then she ends up in a spiral where she gets more and more anxious and then bluster and bravado and attitude creep in just to hide how anxious she's becoming. She comes across as being very confident and a little bit cocky - but actually she's not a child you need to knock down - but one you need to build up more... again, not a deluded parent saying it - it's the teachers at school who made the connection and she's really started to rein it in as much as she possibly can and calm down a load since they figured that out and started taking that approach. She gets nurture group/social skills group time which has helped a great deal as well - and school do understand that at points coming up to transition she goes completely back into overdrive again - but her class teacher this year again seems to really be such a good match for her (last year's was fantastic too) and she's calmed down so much and is a child they have targeted for transition support wherever possible as well.

Under no illusions - she drives me barmy sometimes and I'd go nuts trying to teach her - but school really have unpicked what's going on underneath with her.

Just a possibility to consider.

HexagonalBattenburg yes this sounds identical.

youarenotkiddingme I've thought this all along. The only time he is fully relaxed and not anxious is during the summer holidays because the rest of the time the school and us are always speaking to him about behaviour or punishing him for his classroom behavior.

Big dreams I'm glad you find it so funny. This is the truth, our school is in an upper class area, only "nice, conforming" children are wanted in our school. The school gets almost no funding as not many sen children, no free school meals etc.
The senco had a meeting with me to tell me and her exact words were "we have 3 children in school with SEN, the one in year 6 has diagnosed adhd. We arent really used to dealing with" these things " so you need to find out who to refer to etc as we don't know. Also your son is at risk of a mental heath crisis over the coming years if you don't sort this as he gets on his friends nerves and he's going to end up with no friends due to his loud personality ".
When I fed this back to cahms they were absolutely gobsmacked

I am under impression that our school would rather push out children who aren't perfect

In a class of 30, one dominant, shouting out child interrupts the learning of 29 other children. The teacher has to get them ALL to a certain level. Every minute of interruption makes that level harder to achieve. No teacher went into the job to push children out. But they do need to do a job and be fair to the other 29. What do you think it feels like to be one of the 29?

soontobe. What utter nonsense and shocking parent blaming. Funnily enough school never viewed dd as a problem and refused to listen to our concerns re handwriting and never following through on brilliance. She was well behaved and a high performer "she's level 5 and not one anyone needs to worry about".

At 15 the depression and anxiety started. Wonderful home, stable parents ither dc with no issues. Guess what CAMHS parent blamed and did diddly squat despite cutting and pills and borderline issues.

Guess what? After £4k of private consultant psychiatry and therapy and medication she was diagnosed with ADHD/ADD. Root of all issues and common co-morbidities - poor handwriting, mild dyspraxic, anxiety, depression.

Admittedly her new 6th form were fab and had ger writing assessed and her on a laptop v fast but CAMHS and primary were hopeless. Only the most caring and committed if parents would have supported, encouraged and got my dd diagnosed and well again. She is now at Oxbridge and her recoveryand diagnosis had fuck all to do with school teachers, senco or not, or CAMHS who didn't give the slightest damn and were 110% incompetent looking only for problems in the family because anything else was way beyond their limited intellect.

How dare you parent blame; how very dare you. Your post is the typification of ignorance and has made me so very angry.