To not want to work a 24-hour day because "it's fun"?

[KentishMama]

Probably a bit outing, so will keep it brief.

I work for a super cool trendy startup in a pretty senior role. My boss decided that the entire team should do a Hackathon style event where we try to solve a couple of big business problems in teams... Overnight. The "event" starts at 4 pm (after we've already been at work since 8:30) and ends at 10 am the next morning. After that, we can "have the rest of the day off."

But what about sleep? "Oh, there'll be coffee. And if anyone needs a power nap there are a couple of sofas."

I really don't want to do this - I'm usually asleep by 9:30 and don't cope with late nights, and won't see DC for 36 hours if I do this... But I know that I'll be told I'm setting a poor example for my team and that this is meant as a team bonding kind of thing.

AIBU?

Just say you have health issues that mean you need to go to bed by 9.30 each night ( I go early too - often about 10) and that you hope it all goes well.

Why should you even have to explain? It's optional. "No sorry, that doesn't work for me. Have a great time!"

If pushed, I would say that hubby is away and there is no one to look after the children.

I think since you have a 'senior role' it's your duty to stand up for yourself and for those below you.
Be the trouble maker if you have to.

Okay you all need to say this is not okay and you won't do it, or at least the majority. If it is just you, your career will suffer, especially because you are a manager. Sound out others and see what they think, especially other managers.

Or just say nothing maybe agree it sounds like fun then come down with d&v that week

That's really cowardly and shitty behaviour for someone in a 'fairly senior role'. In your position you are a point of contact between your manager and junior staff, whether they report to you or not, and you are responsible for their health and wellbeing in addition to managing, training them etc.

Saying nothing and leaving them to go along with this hair brained illegal plan, when some of them will also be unhappy or have responsibilities or medical conditions that will be disrupted is not the decent thing to do.

Suggest an alternative. If it's about getting out of business as usual to come up with solutions then suggest working in a different space or going for a long walk to bounce off ideas - walking meetings.

Or just use Catastrophe suggestion:

I can't do it because of my condition?
What condition is that?
I don't want to do it.

Ok op, if you are senior, then if you go along with this as it stands and especially if you call in sick, then you are part of the problem. Gauge the feeling among your colleagues, but I think that you have to do something.

Yakori gave some first class advice on page 1:
Regular food breaks, sleeping areas, setting up shifts so you have new people coming in throughout the night and working with peoples preferences re being night owls or morning larks, breakfast and Taxi’s home in the morning

Then you’re going to definitely need quality control the next working day because any technical work done by sleep deprived people at the early hours is going to be riddled with errors.

I’ve seen my DH work through a couple of nights and he couldn’t tie his shoelaces. It’s just unproductive and inhumane.

I would say to my boss that if he genuinely wants to bond his team rather than piss people off and be divisive, then the event has to take place during working hours, because feeling forced to stay at work all night is not a bonding experience, it's physical torture for anyone who is not a night owl, or who had other things planned with their unpaid leisure time. You're senior enough to be honest, surely?!

A friend of mine works in what sounds like a very similar environment and was put in a similar position last year. She was also afraid to be the 'troublemaker' who brought up HR and H & S. In the end, she didn't have to. Her boss found a letter on her desk one morning from an anonymous employee stating the legalities, or lack of, her suggestions. It didn't go ahead in the end.

"Nope, not doing it, nor am I forcing my team to, it is a terrible idea and I won't be involved"

I couldn't care less about their response to that as if this is the kind of shit they are going to pull, I wouldn't want to work with them.

You won't be the only one who doesn't want to do it, lead by example and show your staff that you don't have to be a doormat. The reason companies continue to treat staff like shit is because staff let them.

Good morning! Sorry I sent quiet... I... er... A SLEPT! Told you I can't function...

So. Lots here to respond to, but I think I might have to do something like this:

Have meeting with boss. Say its a great idea for night owls and hope it's amazingly successful, but I feel it's my duty to tell her that firstly the feeling in the team is one of "WTF" rather than "YAY". And secondly, that this overnight thing is cool for a certain type of people, but really hard for parents or those with any health problems, especially mental health, as it might put too much pressure on them and exacerbate conditions. However, I can take part till 11 if that helps, and keep an eye on email and stuff tomorrow while others might need to sleep. And I'll bring the donuts.

I'm not calling in sick for something like this. That's definitely setting the wrong precedent!

I'd say they've not really thought this through very well and will soon face reality when everyone is sat looking like zombies at 2am.....

YANBU unreasonable - I bloody hate hackathons. I participated (as advisor) in the evening section of one once, with my 3 month old strapped to my front - and it was a farce. No-one writes good code by 4am after a full day (no matter what they think) - plus it's unreasonable for those with caring duties, and I've read of more than once incident of sleeping women at these things being assaulted, so it's not something that I think is wise.

Rainbowwaffles Dammit! Knew it would be too outing. Is this where I delete the post and go into hiding...?

I’m epileptic so sleep for me is key to managing my seizures. Has he considered medical conditions etc? What about those with kids who can’t just leave them over night? Are you being paid for the extra unsocial hours? How are you all getting home safely?

Coffee is not a substitute for sleep!

PS: This one does not involve coding. It's a completely different business function.

This is so bizarre! Why don't they hold the Hackathon on Friday from 9 to 5 then go to the pub, like any ordinary business would??

This idea is just madness. In the last few years I’ve been part of the project team for some big IT projects that have required 24 hour roll outs so key staff have been on call for 24 hours plus at the point of go live.
Even then when it is absolutely critical to have the staff available we spend months planning rotas and having practice runs to make sure no one has to do more than 12 hours straight on site and regular rest breaks are factored in. Where possible people conference call or remote in so they can be available for check points then catch up on sleep. Even with those safeguards in place everyone is running on fumes by the end of the roll out. It’s just not a productive way to work and if you want your staff at their best you only do it when you have no choice.

When DH did a hackathon at work he didn’t start work til 12 on the day of the event and was home at 10 the following morning. So still extended hours but more time off in Leui than you are being offered.

Being in the office for such long hours doesn’t sound like ‘fun’ to me!

I've done overnights. But because they were necessary to the business.

This stuff is madness and wrong on so many levels. It's so disrespectful to the employees time, health and life outside work.

Your plan is a good one. In the conversation, I would lay it on thick about what risk assessments have been done, what accommodations are being made for those with (possibly hidden) disabilities, the insurance coverage.

Hopefully that will scare the shit out of management and prompt them to reconsider.

Part of being a manager and especially a senior one is taking a stand for you and your team against this sort of madness. Your team will actually respect you if you refuse to allow yourself and your team to take part in this nonsense. If you allow this crap to happen, then you can be sure your team will just think you don't give a shit about their well-being.

We used to have periodic days to solve business problems - they were off site with no emails or phone calls so that we weren't getting distracted by day to day admin and could concentrate on the problems. They worked well but crucially were days. Maybe a bit more commute time than usual but no overnight crap.

@KentishMama

Your way forward sounds eminently sensible. I have also never been more grateful that I built my career in the uncool , untrendy public sector

Sounds like a good approach to take OP - you're "showing willing" while protecting your team and coming up with proposals etc.

In my experience of working at a startup (though admittedly not an achingly cool and hip one), we never had all-nighter hackathons. In the very early days, we had a few "we could do with volunteeers for Saturday" occasions but on the whole it was a lot more balanced (helped that the boss had a small baby!).

This is more about public hackathons but has some good tips about keeping people fed and watered well plus that you need to make sure the office is warm enough overnight that you could pass on: www.forbes.com/sites/susandanziger/2017/03/16/no-all-nighters-and-other-uncommon-tips-for-running-a-successful-hackathon/

TBH, the startups I know of are more likely to set aside a day a month (or a couple of days every quarter) for hack days. People get excited because it's not business as usual, and it's long enough to flesh out an idea well enough to pitch to management as something that is worth carrying on with.

Oh dear sounds like your company has drunk the koolaid.

Some of our seniorish folks ( big financial institution) went off to Facebook and came back to report on how they worked. There was lots of chat around these late night hackathons and staying until the job was complete and the office being laid out to enable that to happen - so they had food provided, the regulation ping-pong table and games room and shockingly beds.

When asked about how pay and promotions worked, allegedly it was a flat structure and pay rises were rewarded on results e.g. if you weren't able to drop the rest of your life and participate in all night hackathons then bye bye cost of living rise.

Unsurprisingly turnover was reported as being high, but I guess that's what FB wants - lots of young keanie beanies with no families prepared to work very long hours for low salaries and use it as a career bounce to their next move.

I do think there is value in downing tools and focusing on a specific goal or issue, but I don't see why that needs to be done during the night after a day at work. Perhaps OP you could do a bit of quick googling and see how hackathons work elsewhere - I'm not sure that the overnight idea is particularly recommended and if folks are going to be off work the next day anyway to recover, then why not hold it during a working day but remove people from the office or at least from their desks.