To think thosevwanting no deal are extrodinarily selfish?

[malificent7]

If 48% of the electorate wanted to remain surely a softer brexit is better than nothing? Those who are wanting to crash out are determined to risk our future for an outdated world view.

Varadker has said if we leave with no deal a border will not go up. The UK has said so, and I think even the EU have said so.

As to the dosh, well legal opinion in the HoL has it that we have no obligation to pay anything if we leave with no deal. I think we should pay anything outstanding for the current EU budgets, but would expect to get back our contribution to the swanky new building on Arts-Loi that looks like it has an egg in it (makes me giggle each time I drive past it), and our contribtion to the art, wine etc that the EU has amassed whilst we were members.

Pensions...mmm. I think the EU should pay those. If we have to do so, then I would hope that the Kinnocks, Patten and Mandleson would unswear their allegience to the EU and acknowledge that it is the british taxpayer now paying their pensions. I would also hope that they have to pay full UK tax on them.

Apologies. I didn't realise I was quoting soundbites! Can you clarify - who actually intends to build a wall between Northern & Southern Ireland?

Sorry, guess I'm a bit ready to jump with this shambles going on. You'd need infrastructure, guard posts, customs checkpoints. I think the EU would help Ireland establish that very quickly, if there was a real need. They'd send EU peacekeeping forces in, probably.

FinnegansA hard border would be a no-no under the Good Friday Agreement. The Irish Govt. (backed by the EU, of course) would object and there is the very real risk that NI would erupt in violence again if we tried to enforce it

Beach I'm very sorry but I am genuinely confused. If this is the case why was it such a concern to MP's?

If a hard border would be a no no, for reasons you have mentioned. What was the concern in the first place? And obviously then it would be a no no under No Deal. Why did so many Mps object to TM's deal because of this issue? I'm probably missing something?

It’s a total mess.
It was 52 - 48 (ish) and that’s no mandate for a hard Brexit; just as it wouldn’t be much of a mandate to fully remain if the result was reversed (as leave campaign constantly pointed out at the time).
Truth is that with a result that close there’s not much of an argument for leaving or remaining IMO. However, leave did win and Brexit was promised to be delivered. But the numbers don’t add up for a hard no deal Brexit.

It’s a complete nightmare to sort out now and I don’t envy the job. The biggest mistake was to have an in/out referendum without first defining what “out” was

Sorry Beach! My question was to Dangermouse. Out with the dogs in the peeing down rain at the moment 🤦‍♀️

My perfectly honest answer is - I dunno. I think all this is madness and mass hysteria (apologies to feminists for that term).

I don't think 'No Deal' proponents are selfish.

I think they are insane.

With Dangermouse on this.

I thought that the problem is that if we are going to trade under WTO rules ( being then ,I think I did read, the only country to be doing only that,as abandoning all existing treaties is so stupid that no other country has ever done it) there has to be a hard border in Ireland,there is no choice.But a hard border is a no no under the Good Friday agreement,and would even if it could happen disrupt life in NI /Ireland.
Fun times.

I wouldn't actually use selfish as the term as i fail to see how it will actually benefit most in any way. I would use 'deluded'. I know two main groups that voted leave, one were working class people fed up of the way thTorys were running services down, cuts etc, and needed a bogeyman to blame, the other group, opposite end of the spectrum and see advantages to picking up assets in a declining market with less tax take. There were also a great many older people who basically are fed up generally and hate everyone and everything and quite relish stuff going to shit as it was of course all better in 1957. Basically Brexit can bigger up many lives and businesses ( we ourselves will almost certainly relocate if no single market because EU is our biggest market ) the status quo is as it is no, so doesn't make anyone's life worse.

I wouldn’t say selfish, just optimistic to the point of insanity.

Unless you're asking for info on the backstop in Nrn Ireland? It's the backstop that's causing people issues. Some kind of border will be needed somewhere if the UK leaves the EU. There's a couple of good articles about it here www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-explained-why-does-the-border-matter-and-what-is-the-backstop-1.3661518 and here www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/15/what-is-the-brexit-backstop . It's obviously past my bedtime again!

Erm.

On the Irish border, the wuestion isn't really whether we are going to have to build a wall (Donald Trump) style across Ireland. It's that Ireland (the south) would have free trade goods and Northern Ireland would not, and somehow they'd have to be kept apart, the goods that is, ideally not the people! It is an intractable problem, the Irish are quite rightly worried and it is really surprising that no one raised this before the referendum. (Because NO one noticed it, not even the Irish. We were all too busy fighting about other things.)

On point two, the money: we presumably have some commitments, but there is no legal precedent whatever for deciding how much. If the EU agreed when we were members to fund a certain project in (say) Bulgaria but the UK voted against at the time, are we bound? What if the funding decision came after the referendum? What if it funds an EU joint crime commission we will not be allowed to belong to, do we still have to pay for it? And does this mean that EU assets in the UK become ours?

Think about these kinds of uncertainties at every micro and macro level possible and you see why the whole negotiations have become so fraught... Bojo, Rees-Mogg, and Andy the clown may think they can do better but if so it's time they put up or shut up. INHO😁

*IMHO

A soft Brexit gives no voter what they wanted.

A 52:48 vote in favour of Brexit IS a soft Brexit vote. There's no way the whole 52% would have wanted a hard Brexit, and 48% didn't want it at all.

Because NO one noticed it, not even the Irish. We were all too busy fighting about other things.

I agree with some of your other points. But not this one! Demonstrably not true on many levels. Where I’m from in NI we had definitely ‘noticed’ it and that’s why we voted to remain. And so had the RoI. Lots of British people too, as well as those in the EU and further afield.
It wasn’t highlighted much by leave or remain campaigns, is perhaps what you mean. It was being discussed though - including in MN.

Severa posters have referred to Southern Ireland. Please don’t. It’s the Republic of Ireland, or just Ireland. Ireland is an independent country and no longer a vassal state of the UK - to the fury of Tory Brexiteer types - which the incorrect name makes it sound like.

What would actually happen about the money in the event of a hard Brexit is that it would become oart of the inevitable horse-trading. Instead of one general agreement, we'd sooner or later cut deals such as: the French get so much fishing right here and we pay so much of what the EU wants there. The EU agree to share data from the Galileo security project and we pay some more there. Etc. Sort of how the US work our their budget each year, not that that's the most reassuring comparison just now! Certainly not going to finish this job by March 29 but then maybe that was never all that realistic, to untangle 34 years of marriage so fast.

And yes, OP, those in power who actively want no deal are extraordinarily selfish. In pursuing the ‘will of the people’ to exit the EU in such a drastic way they are tearing up the will of the people of Northern Ireland who voted - by a far larger margin - for the Good Friday Agreement. And in the process they will restart the Troubles, leading to the break up of the UK, as well as bankrupting the UK.
When the IMF are in charge, the UK has lost a border poll for NI, and Scotland has given up in disgust and gained infependence, though, Brexiters can sit around feeling proud of how they took back control.

disquieted
who actually intends to build a wall between Northern & Southern Ireland?
Do you remember the troubles?
Do you remember the watchtowers?
Do you remember the barbed wire?
Do you remember the HUNDREDS of murders?

the wall was removed for a reason

somerville, that's interesting, and makes it even more striking that the rest of the UK media (the English? The British? Anyway, the Times TelegraphGuardian Mail ) ignored that point. If we can't even listen to one another at home no wonder we can't handle the Germans and Romanians.

Not that I am a pessimist or anything

@leggylinda totally agree about failing to define what “out” meant. It allowed Leave to promise all things to all people. Very few people said at the time a vote for brexit was a vote for no deal. Absolute shit show.

I don't think they're selfish. Many are misinformed, ignorant and complacent: not all are selfish.

Even the newspapers covered it (a bit). For example guardian article from 2015
I think the decision was taken within the Remain campaign that it shouldn’t be focussed on as an issue because
1/ complex issue rather than soundbite friendly.
2/ would it make the average English person vote differently, given the low level of background knowledge about the Troubles and high level of antipathy?

Yoi’re Right, Grubby, no deal was barely mentioned as a plauasible option. All the coverage that went beyond sound bites was about EFTA and Switzerland or Norway or a deal that kept us a bit closer than either.
www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2015/10/daniel-hannan-mep-norways-relationship-with-the-eu-is-better-than-being-a-member-but-we-could-do-even-better-than-that.html

I don't think people who want no deal are selfish. I just think they're stupid and should be careful what they wish for.

A lot of people I've met are completely ignorant of NI issues (and indeed Scotland and Wales). A lot of Leave rhetoric used Britain and England interchangeably. Attitudes like this are one of the reasons behind the strength of the SNP.
As for the question of who wants to create a hard border? The DUP. They have repeatedly stated that placing the nominal trade border in the North Sea is unacceptable to them. The Brexit deal TM imagined was impossible as soon as she was relying on the votes of The DUP and bribing them with funding. Anything that even looks a bit like a united Ireland is impossible for them to contemplate.