To think that 'boundaries' are a smokescreen for 'controlling behaviour'?

[ThatBadgerThread]

More and more I have noticed a tendency for parents to exert very tight control over every aspect of their children's environment - what they do, who they interact with, how long for, what, when and how they eat, etc.

If anyone oversteps these, everyone is very quick to jump in and say 'go NC' or 'read them the riot act', and that it's important to 'set boundaries'.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the extremes - no one wants their children hanging out with people who are going to be abusive or irresponsible or let them watch TV 24/7. It's more the little things that don't matter in the grand scheme of things, like a grandparent being a bit too indulgent, feeding them a square of chocolate at the wrong time of day, or dropping them off home a bit late (when you don't have a flight to catch).

I just can't help feeling a bit sad that children might be missing out on strong relationships and spontaneous experiences because of it.

I am NC with my mum. It wasn't an easy or a lightly taken decision. I made the decision after a lifetime of realising that every time I asserted/reasserted a boundary, she would only try harder to break it/assert her 'authority' over me.

Some examples would have fallen under your banner of appearing controlling but they were part of a bigger picture in which she failed to protect my children or recognise that a grandparent's wants don't supercede a parent's responsibility or a child's rights.

So yes, some of it looked like not bringing my children home for bedtime; or feeding them food I didn't want them to be fed but it ended up with her knowingly and repeatedly exposing my children to a convicted child sex offender.

Ultimately, if you want to spend usupervised time with someone else's children, then you need to demonstrate that you recognise and respect the parents wishes around that. It's what the boundary breaking is symptomatic of that is the issue, not necessarily that the individual instances are 'dealbreakers' in and of themselves.

Boundaries are simply about what you are prepared to accept in your life. Knowingly ignoring someone's boundaries is always about control. Some people will undoubtedly use very strict boundaries to control but no, boundaries are not a smokescreen for controlling behaviour.

My mum lets her dog sit on my sofa, it annoys me and I’ve told her so, but in the grand scene of things it’s not the end of the world

Not the end of the world, no, but if one of your boundaries is 'no animals on the sofa' and she knows that, and you've told her so, then her blatant disregard for your boundaries in your home is an issue.

And, tbh, I think that when you do have children, you might well find yourself strongly asserting some of these 'controlling' boundaries yourself.

I wonder if somewhere along the way, you have learnt that what you want doesn't matter.

I agree with Tinheart too. It's not the issue so much as the blatant disrespect. I find it incredibly frustrating when I clearly state what the boundaries are and someone ignores them. It says "I don't care about you, your wants and needs are inferior to mine. I don't respect you."

But most people don’t mind a bit of indulgence or spontaneity here and there but there is a time and places. Boundaries are there because they are important. For example, I wouldn’t be bothered if a family member took my child and dropped them of after dinner instead of after lunch. But if they dropped them after bedtime that would be a huge problem because it will mean that the next two days are awful.

I agree with you OP. I cringe every time I read about 'setting boundaries' - it does feel controlling. I suppose that in an Internet forum you're most likely to hear about extremes of behaviour than the normal everyday stuff, but whatever happened to the give and take of family life?

We didn't think we needed to 'set boundaries' because the very few things we care about are common sense.

However my MIL believed safe sleep guidance is nonsense. Left alone with baby for even a minute and she will try and wrap him in toys/ blankets and leave him (often on the sofa/ floor).

We've told her no a few times. But that makes us mean. So now she doesn't get to visit and see our baby.

DS is not quite 5 months.

Healthy boundaries have an element of flexibility as well as being strong, to allow for the give and take necessary for a relationship to function and flourish. They are not rigid, because good relationships with others don't work that way.

So, YABU. Boundaries are essential!

I agree with TinHeart. I have boundaries and my mother likes to cross them. She reduced my dd to tears recently and created the same crazy making behaviour in my dd she and my brother were able to induce in me until very recently. My mother was given very short shrift. No anger from me. That’s how much work I’ve done on myself to create behaviour expectations and boundaries. Those are good boundaries.

Yes, some people have an awful lot of boundaries and some can come across as controlling. I sometimes see it in dds friends parents and wonder why it is so very important for example when a 11 yo friend can’t go out because her bedroom has been tidied but isn’t perfectly tidy (saw it on FaceTime). It sounds as though she needs a bit of parental help, not railing at and grounding. For me that’s not a boundary as it’s an unrealistic expectation. Dd and another friend went round her house to help (didn’t leave a mess) and none of them managed to crack the problem as the girl doesn’t have the storage space. This especially from parents, who seem to be permissive in other ways.

I do see where you are coming from in that context. But as I say I don’t think the example above as a boundary rather an arbitrary rule.

Our role as parents is to teach our children how to set boundaries for themselves. If we are controlling what other people do with regards our children, they are our own boundaries - not those of the children. No one gets to set boundaries on behalf of other people.

These are not boundaries, but rules. For the most part parents decide about the needs of their children and try to keep to these rules around other people for consistency. THis is fair enough and sensible for young children.

Boundaries should always be positive for the person setting them and should contribute to their well-being and safety. it is also important to learn how to set them and enforce them. Parents often do their children a disservice by taking over that role for too long.

I agree with you OP. I cringe every time I read about 'setting boundaries' - it does feel controlling... whatever happened to the give and take of family life?

But surely these work both ways? You might see it as the 'give and take of family life' if someone brings your child home late but what if you had other plans that were affected by it? Or it disrupted their sleep pattern so that they didn't sleep that night and you had a shit day at work as a result? Or it meant a day of them being miserable/distressed?

What about the 'give and take of family life' which means that you might quite like to keep the grandchild for a couple of extra hours but the parents want them back at a set time? Or you want to give your grandchild chocolate on a Tuesday/before dinner but the parents only want their child to have sweet treats at the weekend/after dinner? Whose 'wants' win?

My ex in laws are both 'drinkers'. We weren't comfortable about them drinking around the children (never left the children alone with them but they were loud/aggressive/clumsy when drinking). They ignored my exh's requests to not drink/get drunk around the children and called us "stuck up". However, when ex fil accidently tripped over the 2 year old whilst drinking, my exh told them that, if we got round there and they were/had been drinking in future, it wouldn't happen again, they listened. Problem averted. Were we controlling?

Not the end of the world, no, but if one of your boundaries is 'no animals on the sofa' and she knows that, and you've told her so, then her blatant disregard for your boundaries in your home is an issue... I wonder if, somewhere along the way you have learnt that what you want doesn’t matter.

I think this sums up the issue. If I took the dog scenario as evidence that my mum doesn’t care about or respect me, I would feel upset, start to resent her, start believing that she’s controlling and probably find other evidence that backs that up, possibly conclude that she’s bad for me and that really if I have any self respect I should stand up to her.

But for my mum it’s not about control. It’s about her being a bit of a softy and looking at the dog’s big pleading eyes and thinking about her tired old bones and wanting to indulge her with a warm and cosy place to sleep. And thinking that surely I won’t mind just this once...

Her heart is in the right place and I think that matters. Her motivations are not negative ones and they are not about me.

What about the 'give and take of family life' which means that you might quite like to keep the grandchild for a couple of extra hours but the parents want them back at a set time? Or you want to give your grandchild chocolate on a Tuesday/before dinner but the parents only want their child to have sweet treats at the weekend/after dinner? Whose 'wants' win?

If we trust people to look after our children, can we not let them make some little decisions even if it’s not the one we would have made? (E.g. your second example).

Out of interest what’s wrong with the chocolate thing?
Is it that you think your children will expect chocolate from you? That they will be spoiled? Is it that the grandparent has gone against your wishes and therefore clearly doesn’t respect you? Is it their teeth? The sugar content?

My philosophy with work is ‘will it matter in a year’? If not then don’t get het up about it...

I remember when PIL minded DD when she was around 6 months. Had started weaning but I didn’t want her to have sweet stuff yet. They’d taken her to a local cafe and I met them there after the appointment I had. They were giving her a bit of cake and I was not happy.
Obv that has not impacted on her life at all but at the time it seemed a big thing. Obv did not go NC but I was prob more specific in what I expected after that.

If we trust people to look after our children, can we not let them make some little decisions even if it’s not the one we would have made? (E.g. your second example).

Yes they can make decisions. Just not if they've been explicitly told not to do that.

Most people are fine with a bit of indulgence now and then as a treat, but then most people also apply a spot of common sense when giving treats and wouldn't do anything to undermine the main carer.

E.g. If a child doesnt have lots of sweet treats and the child has a piece of cake with a hot chocolate mid afternoon when out with grandma then that's a treat.

If the child's parents have said we don't give any sugary snacks after 3pm because it makes DC too bouncy for bed and a grandparent decides they know best, gives the child sticky toffee pudding and ice cream at 6pm and then sends the child home, that's not a treat, it's showing total disregard for the parent's boundaries.

OP, it feels like you have a different outlook on life to others and that's fine. It sounds like you would be happy with some of your wishes/boundaries being repeatedly ignored. It feels like the thread is going in circles with you repeatedly returning to the same argument. What are you trying to achieve.

But for my mum it’s not about control. It’s about her being a bit of a softy and looking at the dog’s big pleading eyes and thinking about her tired old bones and wanting to indulge her with a warm and cosy place to sleep. And thinking that surely I won’t mind just this once...

And disregarding your explicitly expressed wishes in the process... That is the issue.

Out of interest what’s wrong with the chocolate thing?
Is it that you think your children will expect chocolate from you? That they will be spoiled? Is it that the grandparent has gone against your wishes and therefore clearly doesn’t respect you? Is it their teeth? The sugar content?

It doesn't matter what the reason is for having the boundary - the issue is the grandparent having gone against the parents' wishes. It might not be an issue for you. But for some people it is and that boundary should be respected whether or not the person understands or agrees with it.

What if your boundary was, "I don't want my child spending the night in the house with a man I don't know"? And what if that boundary was ignored? And what if it later transpired that that man was a convicted child sex offender?

Or what if you were vegetarian? And when your children were at their grandparent's house, they fed your toddler sausages? It doesn't matter that sausages aren't the work of the devil. Or that the grandparent's aren't vegetarian. Or that grandma is just a bit of a softy and looks at their grandchild and thinks, "what a shame that they've never tasted a sausage"? You, as the parent, have said, "no meat".

Or what if you have said you don't want your 8 year old left in the house alone and the grandparent decides they're only popping down to the shop for milk and will only be out of the house for 10 minutes and they're sure that the 8 year old will be ok on their own for that time?

If we trust people to look after our children, can we not let them make some little decisions even if it’s not the one we would have made?

The point is that most people generally do trust people to make small decisions regarding their child even if it's not one that you would have made yourself. However, that has to be within the boundaries. If someone has been explicitly asked not to do something, then they shouldn't do it.

Take it away from children for a moment. I have a boundary of fidelity in my romantic/sexual relationships. I wouldn't give a second chance, and never have. What about if someone ignores that boundary? Some women will walk away at a kiss; some women would forgive a one night stand; some women would work through an affair. What about that boundary?

What if you've asked your husband not to grab your boobs when you're cooking dinner and he continues to do it? You say he's not being controlling - he just fancies his wife and wants to touch her. Does that make it ok? That's a boundary.

It's interesting you talk about people you 'trust'. Boundaries are about what you are personally willing to accept in your life, in your relationships etc. I decide whether and how much I trust someone based upon their ability to respect my boundaries.

I wouldn't trust someone who repeatedly ignored my boundaries. That is the point. If I can trust someone on the small stuff (e.g. returning home on time/not giving chocolate before dinner etc) then I know that I can trust them on the big stuff (e.g. not exposing them to child sex offenders/leaving them in the house unattended/feeding them sausages when we are vegetarian) because I know they are someone who respects my wishes whether they share or agree with them or not.

I probably come across like controlling due to the strict boundaries I have had to put in place with my parents.

My parents think that they have rights over me and that I should do as they say or do as they do because I’m their child (even though I’m 28).

I’m currently 36 weeks pregnant with DC1 (and their first grandchild) and I’ve already said that they can’t turn up unannounced when baby is here, that we don’t want visitors for the first 5 days of baby being born and that they can’t post anything on social media. May seem controlling but there is a backstory as there usually is with many of these stories.

I have a parent who is (I highly suspect) autistic so I have to be crystal clear and the other parent who just enables the crappy behaviour.

Although I do agree some people can seem OTT on here, it’s just a small snapshot of their relationship with the parents/in-laws.

The problem is that things like this like a grandparent being a bit too indulgent, feeding them a square of chocolate at the wrong time of day,
are really important to us and our child for example.
And I know that MIL feeds her other grandchildren stuff that she knows their parents don't want them to have and she does that in secret.

@TinHeart
The situation with your mum sounds horrible, I’m sorry you had to make that decision; and the other examples you describe are also unacceptable. Clearly there are often good reasons for rules, and I appreciate that what people post is sometimes just the tip of the iceberg.

So it’s not that I think boundaries aren't necessary, but that the word 'boundary' is sometimes used to legitimise pettiness/ arbitrary rules which aren't necessarily in the child's best interest as a pp said. Or a legitimate-but-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things-not-that-important-if-it's-occasionally-broken rule being blown so out of proportion that it results in parents feeling disrespected and undermined and the grandparent feeling resentful and micromanaged and the child getting caught in all the bad feeling.

@showmeshoyu, you asked why I was posting and it’s a fair question: I probably didn't do a very good job of framing my original post but really just wanted to understand why parents now are so much more uptight. Is it because we know more about child development? Because we are more stressed and anxious generally? Because there is more risk in life? Or because we think there is? Are we actually better parents for having more rules or is it something I should actively try to avoid when I get to that point?

By way of context, I babysat for local kids and family all the time when I was aged about 14-24 (late 90s, early 2000s)– occasionally for a whole weekend or in a couple of cases a week. There were no explicit instructions beyond returning them alive: and there was no danger of breaking any rules because there weren’t any! No one ever got hurt, and I was always invited back... Parenting has definitely changed.

@tinheart

Amazing post on boundaries! Amazing. There's not much left to say after that.

Op I gave my in laws pretty free reign to begin with, didn't sweat the small stuff but over time, they lost my trust bit by bit.
Mil started to potty train when dd wasn't ready, she didn't listen when I tried to explain, she forged ahead.

So she lost some trust, we had to erect a boundary and and pull back visits.
Fil kept repeatedly feeding dc off his own cutlery inspite of us asking him not too.
More trust lost.
We asked Mil to keep dc awake when younger if possible. And yet when we got them home they would be up till midnight.
Months later she admitted believing that day time naps meant they would sleep better later on.

This goes into larger issues like the car door lock, the pond and so on. I have pretty much zero trust left for them now. And our boundary wall is now extremely high.

Op you seem rather entrenched not sure it's worth posting on this thread tbh

I'm not sure that we are more uptight. I grew up in the 70's and I remember my own mum having 'boundaries' that she expected my grandparents to adhere to. I remember my grandad letting me eat sugar cubes after my mum said no - that wasn't about him just bring an indulgent grandad, it was also him trying to put my mum in her place and telling her that he would do as he pleased, even regarding her child. It was about respect or lack of it. A good grandparent does what is good for the child, which is not undermine the parent.

I don't dispute that my mil loved my DC, she was soft with them, like your mum is with her dog. But the thing with parenting is that you have to do what is right for your children, even if it's not the popular thing. My mil would turn up every week with 6 month's supply of sweets. One of my DC had just hit his teens was struggling with his weight. The other had a problem with their tooth enamel not having formed properly, so I was trying to reduce sugar intake. Mil would not listen, despite repeated explanations of why this was so important. It was infuriating. And of course, it wasn't her having to deal with the results.
In the end I just put it straight in the bin - such a waste of money.

Your mum irritates you now, by letting the dog sit on your sofa. Imagine how much more it will piss you off when her lack respect for your views doesn't just mean your sofa gets dirty, but affects your children.

why parents now are so much more uptight.
Because you have some kind of weird confirmation bias. Or because you have only read a concentrated sample online that doesn't reflect the population. Because you seem to have a point to get across that's muddy and you keep going in circles despite people explaining it very clearly.

I've seen no evidence to suggest parents are more uptight. Sure, parenting has changed, but I suspect fewer children are given the belt for not drinking their castor oil at 7:48pm precisely.