To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

[Theselfishsister]

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

What I think is absolutely wrong is the current situation of those with the money to bribe smugglers (or the chutzpah to get in a dinghy and the luck to not die) get the opportunity. Asylum applications should be processed outside of the U.K. (and I am starting to wonder whether there should be some kind of penalty for smuggled people - otherwise how will the hideous practice end?)

Yet refugee organisations have shared international law means it’s very hard to claim aslyum outside the country. I believe that the UK have taken in tiny numbers via refugee camps. I do think there is such little sense of proportion about the numbers of refugeees Britain has taken in. 2017 there were around 27,000 asylum applications and 14,000 wee granted. Such small numbers.

I do think we have a duty to help those in genuine need, but only as far as it doesn’t put people here in need.
I voted remain and stand by that. But during my stint working with homelessness and thus, benefits, I believe it was late 2013 (rusty memory) restrictions were lifted saying Romanians could work in the UK but had to wait 3 months to claim benefits.
From early 2014 there was an influx in the offices, people claiming that 20 of them had been living in one house (sheds) for 3 months and now needed support and housing and benefits etc
This was huge for us, we didn’t know how on earth anyone was going to cope. It was a deprived area and we didn’t hear anything about it on the news.
Maybe working within that environment did make me bitter. Maybe knowing a mum with 4 kids had been in a hostel 30 miles away for 6 months because there was nowhere else to put them made me bitter. But to me, I just think ‘open borders’ and letting anyone in is going to have a negative effect.
How far can Assylm go? I read (on MN probably) someone was granted asylum in New Zealand from the UK because she was transgender and the UK isn’t accepting of this.. so she was technically a refugee? So what constitutes a refugee? Where do we say ‘no’? A child who’s home was bombed in Syria, yes of course we should be helping... a group of young fit men who have enough money to pay smugglers for boats to travel with no proof of who they are or where they came from? Who stopped through several safe countries along the way? I remain sceptical.

basically able bodied Brits have not picked their own veg for over 100 years

Utter rubbish.

I have done this. I know other British people who have done this right up to the mid 1990s. It is only in the last 20 years it has been taken over by people being brought in.

For some people it has impacted their income.

Ta1kinPeace

basically able bodied Brits have not picked their own veg for over 100 years

Total rubbish. I was potato harvesting as a teen and as a young adult, it was a right of passage in to work in the area that I grew up.

It included (but not exclusive to) strawberry, potatoes, sprouts, and fruit picking in orchards etc.

Working class and no privilege here and I'm absolutely pro open borders.

Our problems are not caused or exacerbated by immigration in fact time and time again studies show that we benefit from immigration.

Capitalist and individualist ideology, shit governments and poor use of public funds are why our health, social care and education systems are crumbling and the welfare state is killing people.

This country (and many others) has its priorities completely wrong. There is a constant need to attack and blame each other and anyone seen as different or 'other'.

Immigrants
British Muslims
Benefit claimants
Single mothers
Working mothers
Stay at home parents
The working class
Sick and disabled people
Etc etc etc
But hey, let's spend fucking millions on brexit, whining about immigration and Europe. Super.

And we all squabble about which group of poor people are to blame. Who is the poorest? Are they more deserving than you? British poor people of Syrian poor people? How do we spread the limited money between the poor people?

We are fighting for the scraps at the bottom of the barrel when the issue is why aren't the rich people and business paying their way? Why don't we tax fairly? Why do we support regressive taxation? Why do we allow austerity?

The problem isn't with the marginal groups it is with the massive inequality in our society.

We should be turning round and pointing fingers at business and individuals who are making money at the expense of all the poor people, brown, white, British, Eritrean etc.

Can I point out Germany through open its borders and it hasn’t been a roaring success. A lot of the refugees feel safer going back to Syria than staying in Germany.

Yes. And there was that whole Merkel inviting everybody over and saying ‘We can do this Germany’ then going, ‘Ah. Actually, we can’t. And the rest of Europe, we’re sending loads of them to you.’ And the rest of Europe not even having had the chance to vote for or against this woman who unilaterally made a decision which has changed the face of an entire continent and affected millions of lives.

We are fighting for the scraps at the bottom of the barrel when the issue is why aren't the rich people and business paying their way?

Because we can’t. We live in an increasingly connected world where geographical location of businesses is becoming an irrevance. If we tax them punitively, they leave and go to a more welcoming country.

Look at France. Hollande introduced a 70% tax on the rich, they all left and came here and tax receipts dropped. Macron lowered the tax and they all went back and tax receipts went up.

And there is the whole problem with collective bargaining and withdrawing your labour in the form of strikes. It only works in the public sector now. Because in the private sector there’s usually a queue of Romanians queueing up offering to do the same job on the cheap.

YANBU

We can't fight for fair distribution of wealth? We can't fight back against unfettered capitalism because we are in a global economy?

Hmmm why don't we join together as a trading bloc with our neighbours? Why don't we have rules that cover all countries to try to level the playing field? If we are working towards a situation where we demand the same rights and standards for our workers that gives us more strength? If we worked together in a market of 500 million consumers that might give us some strength.

It might not be perfect and it might be a work in progress but it's better than just saying we are in a globally competitive world so we just have to suck up the scraps and fight like rats for what's left.

I do think we have a duty to help those in genuine need, but only as far as it doesn’t put people here in need.

This is where our opinions differ. You think people that live here are more deserving of help than those who are being bombed, even though both groups of people have been screwed over by our government, because they were lucky enough to be born on this area of the planet. Because they have a British citizenship. I don't understand people who have this viewpoint, to be honest. How can you put people who are fleeing mass murder below people here for the sole reason that they are British? How does that make any sense?

I just hope that our government doesn't listen to people who think we should turn away the most desperate people on the planet. Don't you get it? The government is never going to care about poor people. At least the government we have now. And whether we help refugees or not is never going to change that. Refugees aren't your problem, OP. People will stumble over themselves to blame others, even people who flee with no other choice, to avoid facing the fact that the government doesn't give a shit and probably never will.

I live close to an area which has been taken over by a particular European nationality.

Whilst I voted remain (I would have liked to be able to live in certain European countries) I can see how friends voted leave.(I think it was one of the biggest leave voting areas)

The problem stems from in 2016 the supermarket, the shops in fact any job that was advertised in the area would only go to that particular nationality.

If you went in the shops you couldn’t make your self understood because no one behind the counter spoke English.

If you went in the specialised supermarket that sold food and brands from that part of the world you would be thrown out.

Local newspaper had an almost weekly report of the racist behaviour of various shop keepers.

These were all economic migrants.

Friends stbexh is classed as a refugee along with most of his family.

Apparently they have said that if they return to their home country they face jail and certain death because of their particular views.

Three guesses where the whole family meet up every year for 2 months over the Christmas period.

Dp has worked at various solicitors offices during the time that the Tamil Tigers were claiming refugee status here.

Funny thing is every statement he read explaining why they were claiming refugee status and wanting to stay in the UK was exactly the same.
Not almost the same but exactly the same.

Whilst genuine refugees should be welcome I don’t think groups of males who have left mothers, sister, aunts and nieces behind to face their fate, their stories should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Taco I understand what you’re saying, Where do you draw the line?
If it’s ok to keep letting people in, when a lot of the UK population is homeless, do we just keep going until we have slums within poor areas?

What then?

Sorry but I am confused by your argument. Taking refugees has got absolutely nothing to do with open borders! Come to think of it, if Britain didn't stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the US and other NATO members when deciding to go to the, dare I say it, illegal war with Iraq, we wouldn't have the chaos we have in the Middle East today and, hence, there wouldn't be a refugee crisis that we are facing today.

On top of that, I don't know if you realise this or not, but there is a massive shortage of labour across many work categories all over EU and North America, so there is a bit of a globalist agenda from massive corporations to push for free migration to get access to labour and ideally cheap labour that way.

If you are referring to foreigners coming here to work, they are not refugees. I also generally disagree with the argument that foreigners or refugees take away that many jobs from the local population. Maybe some but not that many. Far more jobs have been taken through what they call business transformation, automation, economies of scale and outsourcing than any refugees or foreigners coming here or to any other country to settle or work.

Yes, of course, there are also highly skilled migrant workers. Doctors, for example, but I doubt that they are fighting for the same jobs with those because many of the markets for highly skilled workers are competitive and tough, so jobs are given mainly on merit.

I do agree that there is pressure on infrastructure but, unfortunately, that's more to do with the fact that the government is more concerned with protecting interests of global corporations and banks than ordinary folk. That's really where most of our taxes go and that's why we get involved in so many wars everywhere.

Open borders have very little to do with middle class people like your sister.

The UK doesn't have open borders. Why do you think there are hundreds if not thousands of people living in squalor in northern France, prepared in some cases to risk death in a small dinghy or under a lorry? It's because the UK does NOT have open borders.

As far as EU freedom of movement is concerned, it benefits the poor more than the rich. Rich people can buy themselves education and healthcare and home help. Less wealthy people rely on understaffed schools and hospitals and old people's homes. Fewer educated migrants from the EU makes these jobs harder to fill and results in worse services for everyone.

Changes in local population can be planned for, although often they are not, eg when new housing estates are built but there is insufficient provision for schools, GPS etc. This is the fault of local and central planners not of the people who move in.

I think that people need to use refugee and immigrant properly. I have noticed that Brexit immigration debates rarely discuss the geographical origin of migrants. For example, tighter controls on immigration from the EU isn't going to control immigration from other countries eg the Commonwealth.

I suspect that if we polled all adults, your sister's views would be a tiny minority and the most popular view would be that people with qualifications that benefit the UK eg nursing are welcome. So while I agree that the richer you are the more open borders you'll be, I think that the richer the immigrant the more welcome you'll be made by "locals"

I think that your sister is imagining most immigrants to be professionals like engineers, the most anti-immigration people are imagining rapists while those believing in some immigration realise that there's a spectrum and that ideally we want the "naice" not "nasty"

YABU: refugees are the most vulnerable groups of people in the world - they are escaping hardships we - all of us - find hard to imagine.

Refugees represent a drop in the ocean. Refugees are not competing in any meaningful way for jobs.

Supporting refugees does NOT equate to wanting open borders . I hate this misconception used by the Right. The right to claim asylum is a world wide obligation countries have agreed.

I do think we have a duty to help those in genuine need, but only as far as it doesn’t put people here in need.

Say there was a miracle and half of benefit claimants magically found other sources of income so the benefit bill halved. I bet that the people still needing benefits wouldn't see their payments double and that the money ends up benefiting middle/rich people than the poor. Politicians have to curry favour with the rich for donations and future lucrative jobs and the Tory party in particular seem happy to shit on the poor regardless of where they are from.

EU migrants pay more in tax than they take out. If they all left, the government would have to find the shortfall and I bet the poor would end up paying proportionally more. Schools and hospitals wouldn't magically have more capacity. They'd be less well funded and in the case of schools shut down and sold off to private developers in areas with high immigration. There would be fewer kids but also fewer schools and less money.

The amount of people rough sleeping has increased 169% since 2010. 5,000 people sleep on the streets in any given night in the UK.
26,400 households made a homelessness application between January - March 2018.
Since 2010- 2018 79,000 households were placed in temporary accommodation as there was no permanent housing available for them. 22,000 of these households were placed in a different area to where they’d made their application. 6,000 were placed in B&Bs, 5,500 in hostels, 20,000 in accommodation paid per night.

Yes we’re a ‘rich’ country on paper but that wealth is held by a minority of people, with a larger group now living in poverty. When you are in the midst of this poverty, it is difficult to be accepting of the constant ‘we’re a rich country with fabulous benefits and amazing systems and jobs, let them all in as we can help!’

We just can’t let every bloke who arrives in a boat the right to live here - we can’t afford the benefits, we can’t supply the housing and pubic systems can’t cope.

As for ‘immigrants pay in more than they take’ maybe so, but does that include the ‘free’ services they use? The houses taken up? The NHS appointments used? The school places? I’m not Against immigration as a whole, it can be a very positive thing but I am against letting anyone in who simply says they want to live here.

And anyone who’s lived in a very deprived area, with a large population of first generation immigrants will understand what I mean when I say, some people who move here and are placed in estates with mainly people from the same place, it can have a very negative impact on the neighbourhood at times. Sadly the place I grew up in, became a very ‘no go’ zone for woman after a certain time.

I don’t blame immigrants for the shit storm that is this country, it is absolutely not their fault, But the poor in this country are being failed at every turn, and letting everyone in will only make it harder for them.

As I said in my title it’s about opening borders to immigration, not just refugees. although in reality how do we really know who is a refugee when the majority of people that arrive to claim asylum do so on a boat with no documentation?

Taco I understand what you’re saying, Where do you draw the line? If it’s ok to keep letting people in, when a lot of the UK population is homeless, do we just keep going until we have slums within poor areas? What then?

But that is an incredible far-fetched situation. Refugees represent a tiny number of immigrants. They are not the reason for homelessness. It is incredibly unlikely that refugees are going to cause a large proportion of the UK population to become homeless

There’s 35 million refugees currently, in 2017 the UK received 25,000 applications from refugees alone. Is that a small number?