To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

[Theselfishsister]

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

There’s 35 million refugees currently, in 2017 the UK received 25,000 applications from refugees alone. Is that a small number?

Yes I do think 25,000 a year entering the UK is a small 'price' to pay for the extreme pain and disaster we have caused in their countries. And is not going to cause a large number of British people to become homeless.

There’s 35 million refugees currently, in 2017 the UK received 25,000 applications from refugees alone. Is that a small number?

It isn’t a large number in the scheme of UK migration, really. It’s significantly less than half the population of Lowestoft (chose a town at random).

This article here talks about migration figures: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-44846002

In 2017, net migration to the UK (the number of arrivals less the number of departures) was at 282,000. So 25,000 is less than 10% of that!

Overall, though, I think I agree with your basic point, which is that it’s much easier to be liberal (particularly with regard to low-skilled migration) when you are wealthy.

Yes I do think 25,000 a year entering the UK is a small 'price' to pay for the extreme pain and disaster we have caused in their countries

The vast majority of the British public have done nothing to harm these people. It’s easy to be generous with other people’s resources and money.

After the collapse of Yugoslavia, western Europe took in 1,000,000 refugees.
Tens of thousands came to the UK
They work hard, they add benefit to the country. They pay taxes, they are much less of a burden on the NHS than fat old Brits.

Why should Syrians and Sudanese and Congolese not get the same chance to rebuild shattered lives.

Shortage of social housing - because the Tories force councils to sell off houses and ban them from building replacements

Crisis in the NHS - because the British baby boomers are getting older fatter and iller - over 65's onsume 90% of the resources of the NHS

Austerity - because the Tories will not put taxes back up to what they were under Margaret Thatcher

Tax dodging multinationals - because politicians write laws to favour the people they hope will give them a job.
The EU is clamping down on this on 2nd April ....... 3 days after Brexit

work it out folks

Not convinced tbh. Ime the more people have the more they feel entitled to and the more they hang onto it kicking and screaming. I think if you started housing refugees in middle class areas and giving priority to refugee children in naice leafy schools it'd be a whole different story.

YABU we should take refugees.
I'd like to think that other countries would help my family if in need of refuge.

Immigration is a great thing... the UK cannot survive without immigrants.
However, uncontrolled MASS immigration is what is crippling us as a country. Hundress of thousands of nurses, doctors, teachers, skilled workers, yes please. Hundreds of thousands of shop workers, waitresses and car wash attendees, no thanks.

Refugees are not immigrants. Less than half of one percent of the UK population are refugees and the majority of applications are turned down.

The UK committed to take a paltry 20,000 Syrian refugees by 2020 and has hit less than half that number. It's brutal and the OPs sister is right to campaign.

MrsAriadneOliver you are insistent we "have done nothing to harm these people" while we live off the wealth we stole from their countries.

We stole from them, abused them, deliberately set up unsustainable boarders but none of it is our fault. Shame on you.

As grown ups, as responsible adults in the world we helped (forcibly) to shape we should take responsibility for our actions.

The vast majority of the British public have done nothing to harm these people. It’s easy to be generous with other people’s resources and money.

You keep circling back to the idea that because you personally did not cause the destruction in Syria and other countries, the refugees should not be taken in. Even though it is not the refugees, a small minority in the larger number of immigrants, that are the sole cause for homelessness and other shortage issues.

Refugees coming in to this country, yes, are having a negative impact in some areas. So fucking what? That's not a reason to stop letting refugees in. If the government invested in those areas instead of neglecting them like they always do then an influx of refugees would not be a negative thing or cause any shortages; which they are not doing on a large scale anyway, because they're like less than 1% of the population.

And you seem to be ignoring that even if we didn't let in refugees, the working class areas would be fucked. The government doesn't give a shit. What makes you think that there being no refugees or foreign aid will cause the working class areas to receive more funding? They won't, and you know it, but you don't want to think about the government neglecting people eternally so hey, look there's some refugees fleeing mass murder, let's blame them!

You not personally causing destruction and war in Syria is not an excuse to abandon thousands of suffering people. It doesn't matter whether you did it or not. The point is that Britain caused it so Britain needs to fix it, or even just offer refuge to the people running from bombs. There isn't really another solution. Under no circumstances should we turn away innocent people who have nowhere else to go.

There's this attitude that British people have where it feels like they think they're above refugees..like they think this could never happen to them. What if it all went tits up in 5 years and you were fleeing with your children? When you finally got there, how would you feel if someone doesn't let you in? Because their 'ancestors' caused it, so they have no obligation to help you? That you're a tiny percentage of the population, but they can't help you? God knows why some people are devoid of empathy.

Refugees are a tiny percentage of people in this country. They are not the cause of shortages. They are not the cause of homelessness. They are not less worthy of being safe because they weren't lucky enough to be born here. They are people, just like us, and they are suffering. They have nowhere else to go.

MrsAriadneOliver you are insistent we "have done nothing to harm these people" while we live off the wealth we stole from their countries.

This. We cannot say we have nothing to do with the past actions of this country. We can't say that we have nothing to do with the slave trade when the reason this country is so rich is because of the Empire. We are directly benefiting off the actions of our 'ancestors' right now. There's no way you can say you have nothing to do with it. Whether you chose to or not, you are benefiting off the actions of Britain and the destruction they caused across the world and therefore we as a country have the responsibility of taking in those who have nothing because of us.

Sorry. Didnt manage to finish what I was saying as my phone was about to die...

Refugees are not immigrants. Untill they pass through more than one 'safe' country.

I have read up to page 4 now and a few posters keep mentioning why are refugees wanting to come to the UK rather than claim asylum France? It is important to remember 3 times as many refugees applied for asylum in France than the UK. The refugees interviewed at Calais are the ones who will have links to the UK, relatives or friends here, can speak English.

MrsAriadneOliver you are insistent we "have done nothing to harm these people" while we live off the wealth we stole from their countries.

No. Wealthy people live of the money they stole from their countries.

Poor people haven’t benefited from the money stolen from their countries. Yet they are told they must suffer to atone for the sins of the wealthy. Who meanwhile are benefiting yet again from all the cheap labour that lines their pockets with lots of filthy lucre.

You might say you are all virtuous and would willingly pay more to house, fees and clothe them all. But we know from experience with countries like France - that is a lie. As soon as taxes on the wealthy go up, you clear off to the nearest country that offers you low taxes and easy movement.

The refugees interviewed at Calais are the ones who will have links to the UK, relatives or friends here, can speak English.

If they can learn English, they can learn French. I don't have the right to live in Australia or Canada simply because I speak English.

Refugees are not immigrants. Untill they pass through more than one 'safe' country.

Wrong.

I don't have the right to live in Australia or Canada simply because I speak English.

True. But you do have the right to apply for asylum

No. Wealthy people live of the money they stole from their countries. Poor people haven’t benefited from the money stolen from their countries. Yet they are told they must suffer to atone for the sins of the wealthy. Who meanwhile are benefiting yet again from all the cheap labour that lines their pockets with lots of filthy lucre. You might say you are all virtuous and would willingly pay more to house, fees and clothe them all. But we know from experience with countries like France - that is a lie. As soon as taxes on the wealthy go up, you clear off to the nearest country that offers you low taxes and easy movement.

I mean, how do you know how much money we earn? I have been poor for the vast majority of my life and only recently things have started to improve for me and my family. I am willing to pay more for these people. Because I can't imagine seeing someone who has run from bombs and telling them no. I am not wealthy. But I recognise that this country has so much power because of its past actions. I recognise that we are a powerful nation at the expense of thousands of innocent people. And I refuse to believe that we should abandon them because people are in denial about the government not giving a shit. Things for the working class are not going to improve without more government funding. With or without refugees that's not going to happen. People are just convincing themselves that shutting out refugees will solve all their problems when in reality it will solve none.

True. But you do have the right to apply for asylum

Well yes, but they can also apply for asylum in safe, prosperous France. Saying that it's OK to risk your and your children's life in entering a country illegally because you can't be arsed to learn the language of another country is absurd.

I know there are lots of studies showing different things but I thought the generally agreed view was that 1. Homelessness is not purely because of a lack of housing or benefits. It's really complex and due to a number of issues such as lack of mental health services, lack of substance abuse support, lack of support for armed services, no Co ordination between agencies etc. Homelessness affects certain segments of the population disproportionately (eg those with mental health issues and ex service personell) so even if they were found a home, they may struggle to keep up with rent because of a number of issues meaning they lead chaotic lives. Refugees are mainly caused by war and politics so affects whole populations indiscriminately so it's probably easier and has a more reaching effect for a person on the street to offer their spare room.

No country has completely open borders. I asume you are talking about the EU. Most studies show that the net effect of EU migrants is to add to the economy. The UK isn't as great as everyone here thinks it is. The health service isn't abused by everyone as they often get better care in their home country, for example the UK scores low in the league tables for cancer treatment. Sô I don't think migrants cause a lack of funds and UK people to be pushed to the back of the queue for benefits. Overall they are helping people on benefits.I can see how some people may feel differently if they live in an area that has a disproportionately large increase in migrants and the infrastructure can't cope but surely that's the fault of the government. And the lack of benefits and resources was mainly due to factors like the global economic crash and austerity as far as I can see

So on balance I think you're right in what you say but maybe the reason is more education and a different oerspective rather than white middle class people being wrong. The stats don't lie. However I can totally see why some people think differently and most points are up for debate

If they can learn English, they can learn French. I don't have the right to live in Australia or Canada simply because I speak English.

But you do live in a nation free from war, famine and persecution. If a small proportion of refugees in a refugee crisis such as the Syrian crisi who will be traumatised wish to go where they know the language and maybe have someone they know then a humanitarian response is one I support.

The point again is the UK takes proportionally v few refugees to other European countries. So you are happy for Germany and France to take so much more? Also I think people are conflating issues here. Taking a proportion of refugees in is not equal to an open border policy. At the moment I believe the UK could take more refugees than they do. Do I think they should take all refugees of the world? Of course not, but at the moment we take in very few proportionally and are so far from shouldering a big majority of the refugee population. Regarding the Middle East refugee crisis, the majority of refugees have fled and live in surrounding countries, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey. I just think it’s ridiculous to talk as if the UK are taking in huge numbers of refugees when we are clearly not.

There are thousands of stories of companies trying to employ people in low wage jobs. UK applicants don't turn up or are late or rude or lazy. Not all of them but enough that make it easier to employ EU nationals. But 'they're stealing our jobs'. How many hotels and retail will have too many vacancies post Brexit?

Some refugees have seen their whole family killed in front of them. I'd say longer waiting lists in the NHS is a small price to pay to help them

The point again is the UK takes proportionally v few refugees to other European countries. So you are happy for Germany and France to take so much more?

I am in favour of the UK taking in more refugees through the right channels.

I am not in favour of people putting their and their children's lives in danger in unseaworthy vessels when they are already in a safe and prosperous country,