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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

705 replies

Theselfishsister · 12/01/2019 10:04

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

OP posts:
User758172 · 12/01/2019 11:10

We need immigration, we need people to do those jobs at every level

I never understand this argument. It’s just not true, but immigrants get old too. So do we need an endless stream of new to replace the old?

TacoLover · 12/01/2019 11:11

Why do we deserve Britain any less? How else do you want the world to work?

Ideally the way I'd want the world to work is not denying people being murdered from entering our country even though it's our fault because they weren't lucky enough to be born here.

Aquilla · 12/01/2019 11:11

Poor neighbourhoods are deteriorating further because of changing demographics. And if you disagree with that you've obviously never lived in one.

Gettingbackonmyfeet · 12/01/2019 11:14

I'm not sure OP I find it less about the financial status of class but about the knowledge level

I specifically avoided saying education there because I don't believe the two always equate and often middle class has easier access to education

The problem here is that open borders are a complex interlinked issue across different society needs

To be able to understand the correlating and balancing needs of both those seeking refuge or any form of free movement as well as resource stretches for current residents and be able to assess the different societal needs between homelessness, direct physical risk and long term emotional responses that will impact mental health services...ypu require the need to research and think laterally

A lot of people aren't able to do this or don't want to and I don't find it's connected to class

So people if all classes instead jump up and down like excited toddlers on single issues such as physical threat in another country or race and can't even consider the impact of other opinions on the same issue

Sorry tldr: it's not about class it's about stupidity that is refreshingly classless

53rdWay · 12/01/2019 11:15

Poor neighbourhoods are deteriorating further because of changing demographics.

How is 'changing demographics' causing increased child poverty? Increased homelessness, more benefit cuts, shitter NHS services, increasingly shit jobs? It's a good sleight of hand by well-off people in government to continue channeling the country's money towards the rich while saying "don't look at us, it's the Polish family down the road who've caused all your problems!"

And if you disagree with that you've obviously never lived in one.

Yes, I have.

LevelUp · 12/01/2019 11:16

Why do we deserve Britain any less? How else do you want the world to work?

I never said "less".

I'm not in favour of open borders, but I do believe that we should be far more welcoming to those fleeing war and persecution.

Why do we deserve to live in safe country like Britain any more than they do? By virtue of the excellent choice we made to be born here?

CarolDanvers · 12/01/2019 11:17

YANBU.

badlydrawnperson · 12/01/2019 11:22

This is anecdotal - but I came across a Polish bloke recently who is going home because the area he lives in is (in his words) overrun with Romanians who are scrounging benefits and destroying the area where he lives with anti social behaviour. I am not saying he's right - but it's his opinion.

None of these issues are simple - but @MrsAriadneOliver makes an excellent point about the "we NEED immigration" argument - if the immigrants stay and get old, that's just a Ponzi scheme and won't help anyone, not people here already, not the people who arrive.

Of course immigration isn't to blame for the Tory policy of destroying any decent life for eveyone at sub- Rees Mogg level, but there are too few Rees Moggs to account for their electoral success - who the hell is voting Tory with less than a million quid in their pocket?

Racecardriver · 12/01/2019 11:22

I’m privileged. I don’t use welfare services. I am still concerned about influx of people from less affluent countries because I know far too well the kids of attitudes they will bring with them (I am from that kind of background myself, I know it’s not just scaremongering). Yes they may integrate and accept/adhere to liberal values but the more of them there are the less likely they are to do so. I have seen what group immigration from less civilised cultures (we’re talking sexually assaulting women and beating children not merely strict religious beliefs here) does both to the communities they enter and tobthe immigrants themselves (who often become more extreme in their cultural practices in order to prove to themselves and to others from their community that they haven’t westernised).

BejamNostalgia · 12/01/2019 11:23

YANBU. Totally agree. I like the idea of aid too, but I’m concerned it’s just being diverted to people who use it to migrate and pay people traffickers, so we’re just lining the pockets of organised crime.

I am extremely concerned about the asylum system and I think it needs root and branch reform to make sure the most in need are helped and it’s not just exploited as an illegal migration route (2/3 of those refused asylum disappear into the black market and are not deported).

Put it this way, when wars and oppression happen, who are the group that suffer most? Women and children. Hurt and hounded by men. What group has it’s rights oppressed and is persecuted in countries across the world? Women. Denied their rights and persecuted by men. Who are the most persecuted religious group world wide? Christians, largely persecuted by Muslims. Many, many other religious groups are also victims of persecution by Muslims and in some countries leaving Islam is a reason to be killed and it’s legal.

And who are we mainly giving asylum to? Muslim men. The people most likely to be the oppressors, not the oppressed. Only 1% of asylum seekers in 2017 were women.

A Saudi girl living in Kuwait last week fled her family to avoid a forced marriage and renounced Islam. She was in Thailand which is not safe, her family followed her there. She has now been granted asylum in Canada. That is exactly what the asylum system is meant for.

A Saudi Princess was given asylum after fleeing the KSA in 2009. Previous Princesses who have fled have been executed by gunshot.

A Yazidi girl was stoned to death by a mob of 1,000 yazidi men in 2007 because they suspected her of sleeping with a Sunni Muslim boy (she was a virgin).

A 13 yo girl was stoned to death for adultery in Somalia in 2008.

Women are hanged or stoned in some countries if they are raped. Many live under justice systems which render their evidence worthless so men are free to rape, kidnap, beat and torture them with impunity.

Honour killings and murders and maimings plus weaponised rape are rife in many countries.

Women are trafficked, bought and sold like a pair of socks, treated as chattel like a donkey.

And we do very little to stop this.

Persecuted groups are ignored while people who just fancy life in the UK more than at home prosper.

The asylum system is just a source of dirt cheap labour which diverts money out of the pockets of ordinary people into the pockets of the rich.

It should be an international scandal. The asylum system should be helping those in most danger to escape, not helping the fittest and the richest whose journeys are facilitated by organised crime.

Supporters of the status quo in the asylum system are bertraying the very weakest and most in need of help in favour of many, many cheats and crooks.

My children’s school has genuine refugees who have very sad stories and make great contributions to our community. Unfortunately they are very much in the minority amongst the current groups of claiminants.

WeeMadArthur · 12/01/2019 11:23

I’m in favour of open borders because I believe that the working class will be the most badly affected by staff shortages in the NHS ( just one example), anyone comfortably off probably has insurance and can go private to avoid long waiting lists, they will also be able to ride the wave of higher prices in the shops too. Working class people are going to bear the brunt of what happens next, this was always going to be the case.

Theselfishsister · 12/01/2019 11:24

Sorry, I thought I did know the difference between a refugee and immigrant but I admit I’m pretty confused by it... the people in Calais, who have been granted asylum in France but are trying to come to the UK... are they refugees? They were fleeing war but have been given safety in France. That’s not a goady question I genuinely don’t know, she said they were...

OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 12/01/2019 11:24

Someone on fb posted 'it's not true that we're full! Only 2% of our land is built on!' with accompanying graphic to illustrate that the UK is basically one big field with Birmingham in the middle.

Okaay.. I'm not sure where the 2% comes from but assuming it's correct, we've been enduring a housing crisis for over a generation. Despite capitalism, new houses are not being flung up everywhere to meet demand.

Why might this be? Shall we abandon planning laws, build estates on natural sites? And the Scottish Highlands, well they're ripe for urbanisation aren't they. Apart from the fact that young people leave and don't go back because there's no jobs and fuck all to do.

It's the lack of analysis. I'm guessing the 'but we've got loads of space!' people massively cross over with the 'don't build in this field you disgusting capitalist bastards' people.

I don't have the answers myself. But I'm not posting enraging memes that I clearly don't understand.

Thistledew · 12/01/2019 11:25

On the other hand, if you are the one who wants to emigrate, then those from less privileged circumstances benefit more from open borders/freedom of movement. It is very easy to travel and work abroad it you already have money, a good education and a good job. If you have none of those advantages then relocating to another country is incredibly difficult. That's why freedom of movement throughout Europe is such a great social leveller. It opens up opportunities to people who have historically, and in terms of non-EU migration would not have them.

Borders keep us in, as well as keeping 'others' out. In fact, they are essential in order to maintain the distinction between 'us' and 'others' and are the only way that that distinction can be maintained and controlled.

pineapplebryanbrown · 12/01/2019 11:27

I wish I understood economics more as to me if someone native needs council housing and that goes to a refugee then there is one less house. Locals can also be in very desperate need and if they cannot have one it's hard not to feel hard done by. Of course the refugee is in more desperate need but that would be very hard to comfort yourself with.

I don't understand austerity, why are we doing it? Why are we squashing the desperate? It's quite clear that the mechanisms for policing benefits claimants is costing more than the savings made. It creates a very nasty society and makes it hard to give when you have nothing.

MorrisZapp · 12/01/2019 11:28

I'm middle class and some of my friends are quite rich. I don't know anyone who routinely uses private medicine. The insurance many of us get from employers is full of exceptions and exclusions. For most ordinary use, the NHS is our only choice. Only the very wealthy could possibly go private for eg having their babies or treating illness such as cancer.

In fact I don't know if private cancer treatment is even a thing.

Moussemoose · 12/01/2019 11:28

You do know migrants contribute more to the economy don't you?

The implication of the thread is that migrants are a drain on the country and the poor in the U.K. will suffer. This is not true.

Migrants contribute more and make the country richer.

mothertruck3r · 12/01/2019 11:28

Totally agree with you OP!

LevelUp · 12/01/2019 11:31

They were fleeing war but have been given safety in France

So once they've fled their country they should just have no agency over where they live?

What if their school taught English, but it didn't teach French? The French government does not provide these refugees with French lessons - the only ones available are put on by charities and volunteers.

How long do you think it will take them to learn French to the extent the would be able to work?

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/09/we-want-to-work-refugees-tell-france-why-uk-is-so-attractive

badlydrawnperson · 12/01/2019 11:32

Some people seem to be using EU freedom of movement and open borders as synonyms. They are not the same thing at all.

Neither the UK or Ireland joined Schengen - and even Schengen isn't "open borders" for everyone - only EU citizens.

Dutch1e · 12/01/2019 11:32

What always annoys/shocks me is the amount of people who don't understand the difference between an immigrant and a refugee.

This.

If the shit got bombed out of Britain again you might be glad there are some privileged bleeding hearts nearby who will open their doors to you and your children. Or maybe we'll just leave you trapped in shanty towns while traffickers target your youngest because we can't be bothered figuring out the difference between immigration policy and compassion for the displaced

pineapplebryanbrown · 12/01/2019 11:33

We hear stories of engaged couples putting their name down for a council place and moving in as soon as they got married. 45% of people used to live in social housing, what happened? My parents lived frugally but fine on one wage and mum was a sahm. What happened, that's not possible now. There are more people here, that's just a fact and it's hard not to think we are squeezed at the bottom because recent arrivals are likely to need the services that those at the bottom also need.

badlydrawnperson · 12/01/2019 11:33

I know from personal experience that there is a huge amount of racism in France - that alone may explain a desire to be in the UK (not that we are free format, but it's way less prevalent in my experience).

mothertruck3r · 12/01/2019 11:35

Not only does it not affect them negatively, but often they actually profit from it by having more clients (if they are in a profession that benefits from immigration such as lawyers, housebuilders, estate agents etc), they have more tenants for their BTLs (which in turn push up the price of their properties so win-win), the amounts they pay out for things like childcare, cleaners etc is reduced as they have more choice (whereas the working classes have the opposite - more competition) and after they have benefited hugely they can smugly believe they are morally superior too having priced out a huge generation of working and lower middle class people from housing, jobs, good healthcare, good schools by calling them racists.

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 12/01/2019 11:36

Morally yes I'd be happy to welcome anyone here. As long as They're vetted. However there just isnt enough room money or resources for everyone.
That's not heartless. That's a fact.