To think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged?

[Theselfishsister]

Having an ongoing conflict with my sister regarding refugees, she’s very ‘let everyone in’ I would say I’m somewhere in the middle.

She’s given up spare bedrooms to refugees, spends weekends in Calais helping them and is posting everywhere on SM about letting them all in. As well as attending protests regularly for the last 4 years or so.

What strikes me is that her and her other friends going to all of the events are white, MC (although she is by marriage, we grew up very WC) and live incredibly comfortably. She’s a SAHM and her husband owns his own company, they have never needed benefits or social housing and her children are privately educated with all of them receiving private medical care.

A massive increase in people here are unlikely to ever have much affect on her life, she won’t have to fight for jobs or wait for a house or deal with benefit cuts when too much is paid out, as well as the increase in waits for Medical care and school admissions. Whereas for someone like me, this is obviously a more worrying factor and the thought of just opening our borders to everyone does scare me. As much as I would love to be able to take every person fleeing a great life, it just causes me worry and I don’t think I could support completely open boarders.

She obviously just thinks I’m a selfish heartless bitch for not protesting to remove our borders or similar. When I asked why she let refugees sleep in her spare rooms but never the homeless man on the road behind her (who’s been in the same spot since she moved there 5 years ago!) she called me a racist!

So AIBU to think it’s easier to want open boarders if you’re privileged or am I just a selfish cow?

I think it's often difficult to draw a line between an immigrant and a refugee.

We are likely to see more people migrating because of climate change as some places become uninhabitable. (Just as our ancestors migrated to the UK.)

Are they refugees or immigrants? Either way there won't be an option where we avoid the consequences by pretending it is somebody else's problem. Eventually dramatic changes in one country affect all countries.

We have an ageing population we can not support we need young people who will contribute financially

There are ways you can enable people to have the family they may want to have, but can’t afford, rather than bringing in migrants.

And again, these young people will get old! We can’t keep endlessly bringing in younger people. What happens when they too are elderly?

I get the argument that UK people using food banks and Syrians being bombed is not comparable but sometimes don’t you think you do need to be selfish?

The problem is that the UK government doesn't need to be selfish. If the government prioritised helping the working classes and homeless people instead of just benefiting the rich then we could easily pay foreign aid as well as helping people over here. People don't seem to understand that though so they just blame everything on refugees.

OP what you don't seem to be getting is that the refugee crisis is partly Britain's fault. The government is just as responsible for the lives of refugees from Syria as they are for homeless people in the UK. How can you sit there and say that we should abandon these people for the sole reason that they are not British? For the sole reason that they were not as lucky as us to be born here?

It depends what you mean by open boarders. Britain is a small island with finite space and resources. We couldn't fit the entire population of Syria into our country. It would be logistically impossible.

We should take our fair share of refugees and we need immigration to keep the economy going and the NHS functioning. Our aged population is bigger than an our working age population. Without immigration we will never have enough doctors, nurses, surgeons, care workers etc. And that's without considering the seasonal jobs like fruit picking or temp jobs like labouring that Brit's can't do but immigrants can.

We're not Australia. It is not just skilled workers we need.

It's such a tough question. If we let everyone in, then it has an immediate negative impact on welfare costs, schools and culture. We also risk more people thinking we will offfer a welcome, and would soon be overwhelmed.

If we don't, then they continue to suffer.

My own view is that we have to limit the numbers, which includes swift deportation. It may seem cruel. but I don't see an alternative if we want to prevent our own way of life desending into chaos.

And that's without considering the seasonal jobs like fruit picking or temp jobs like labouring that Brit's can't do but immigrants can

Why can’t Brits do them? It’s a patronising attitude to take - we need you folks to do the jobs we Brits don’t want to do? British people should be doing them.

Going back to the OP, yes I think it is easier to want open borders if you are privileged, but I think the number of people who have spare rooms available for refugees and/or want open borders is very limited. Your sister is in a quite unique situation.

Please do not conflate refugees and the EU.

EU freedom of movement ....
90% of vegetable and fruit picking is done by seasonal EU labour. Because Brits do not want those jobs
It is very unclear how the food will make it to the shops after Brexit

REFUGEES

• Syria
• Yemen
• South Sudan
• Eritrea
• DRC
• Iraq
• Afghanistan

All war zones. Many of the weapons being used are British. Those people will keep seeking a life less shit whether we are in the EU or not.

After Brexit, there will be lots more of those people allowed in to do the work that EU migrants used to do.

How can you sit there and say that we should abandon these people for the sole reason that they are not British?

It’s always ordinary people in Britain that are asked to bear the brunt of poor decisions that were made by our leaders.

Why can’t Brits do them?

Because fruit picking is not family friendly. It's generally away from home for long periods of time and for less than NMW. Women are usually the PT workers. A woman could not leave her children that long. The cost of living is higher for Brits than for overseas workers sending money back to their family. It wouldn't be worth them travelling away for months at a time. Brits could be labourers but the benefits system makes temporary working hard.

Even under EU freedom of movement the UK chose not to enforce restrictions that are imposed in other parts of the EU.
This is an important point - we have a VERY minimal enforcement regime here.

This is deliberately misleading. They’re not enforced because they’re unenforceable. The only control we had was that we had the right to depart EU migrants after 3 months if they had no job or means to support themselves.

There are 3.7 million Europeans in the UK. We cannot practically or financially afford to keep tabs on their work status or their financial position. Even if we did, we couldn’t afford the cost of the court cases and repatriations which would follow. Plus in the time that elapsed between them being identified for removal and gaining permission to remove them, many would find a job again, and even if it only lasted a few days, it would reset the clock so they would have another 3 months to stay and then the removal process would start again from scratch. It’s also an easy process to defraud as it’s very difficult to prove people have not been employed or a student. If they are self employed or claim to be, they only file taxes annually.

So the only effective control we have is that if people apply for benefits or support from the state (which they’re not entitled to and won’t get, so why they would apply is a mystery) we could deport them if we wanted to. But again, many of the deportation cases would be expensive and pointless because it’s easy to do a few days work and reset the clock. And we have a thriving black economy which would be much easier for them to join and support themselves that way rather than applying for non-existent benefits.

Anybody who claims there are enforceable controls on EU migration whilst we remain in the EU is an outright liar.

Fruit picking is done by seasonal EU labour. Because Brits do not want those jobs

Well if that’s their attitude, they can’t complain that migrants are doing it then. I don’t know why British people should think these jobs are somehow below them.

I don’t understand this ‘Brit’s won’t do’ attitude either, maybe Brit’s won’t work for pennies or do hours of unpaid overtime, unsafe conditions etc because we know our rights. Perhaps employers don’t like this and it easier to exploit someone who may be vulrenable and unaware of their employers obligations.

I agree immigration can be massively beneficial, for example using the NHS the majority of people I come into contact with do not have English as a first language. But it does leave the question as to firstly, perhaps the poorer countries they came from are being negatively affected by them leaving with their skills and leaving low skilled workers behind but also, maybe government and the UK needs to look into where we are failing in the training of UK nationals to do these jobs also...

It does leave the question as to firstly, perhaps the poorer countries they came from are being negatively affected by them leaving with their skills and leaving low skilled workers behind

I hadn't thought about it like that before, but that's a good point.

Letting people in doesn't take jobs away, it creates jobs. Look at it this way - if you were unemployed, would you go to a small village to look for work, or a big town? You'd go to a big town, of course, because you'd be more likely to find a job there. You wouldn't go "oh no, they've let all those people into the town, and they've taken all the jobs".
The more people there are in a place, the more work there is. Immigrants buy food and clothes. They go to school and the dentist. They use buses. They create jobs for shop keepers, and teachers, and dentists and bus drivers, the same way anyone else in a big city does. This has been extensively studied and the idea that immigrants take jobs is a myth.

They also don't put pressure on the NHS. They prop up the NHS. Count how many of the staff who treat you are British next time you go to the doctor's or hospital. We don't train enough health care professionals in this country to support the NHS without immigration.

This is true of lots of other jobs too - there are loads of professions that rely on immigrant labour because Brits just won't do them. Vets in abattoirs is one. British people become vets because they want to help sick animals. They don't become vets to certify carcasses. So almost all vets in abattoirs are European immigrants.

They also - if they're allowed to work- pay taxes. Which pay for schools and doctors in the same way that your taxes do. The more people we have in this country, the more money there is to pay for services.

theselfish
I don’t understand this ‘Brit’s won’t do’ attitude either
Its really simple.
Farmers advertise jobs paying £7 an hour to do manual work, Brits do not apply.
Job centres send them to work on farms, they do not turn up.
Brits do not want that work.
And yes, farmers could pay £10 an hour
then your food in the shop would go up in price 30%
is that what you want ?

YABU. Your argument is conflating unrestricted immigration and provision of asylum to refugees. Two very different things.

Unrestricted immigration would be a massive burden on any country and its resources; I don't know of any countries which are considering completely open borders - it just wouldn't be feasible. Providing asylum, on the other hand, is something I fully support. How fortunate we are to be in a country where there is no war or dictatorship and we have full human rights and access to healthcare, accommodation, education and food on our tables. To say that people fleeing civil wars or human rights violations or anything similarly horrendous should just stay where they are and 'suck it up' is tragic. Every country that can help should help. Nobody chooses where they are born.

OP what you don't seem to be getting is that the refugee crisis is partly Britain's fault. The government is just as responsible for the lives of refugees from Syria as they are for homeless people in the UK.

How is the UK responsible for Syria? All I can see is the circular argument that it’s our fault for not intervening but if we’d intervened it would have been our fault for intervening like in Iraq and Syria.

All countries are affected by international geopolitical factors to some extent. If their governments are incapable or unwilling to deal with the challenges it brings that doesn’t necessarily make it the fault of the west.

Besides, if my memory serves me correctly, it was the left wing pro migration section of the west that was the most enthusiastic cheerleader for the Arab Spring which started a lot of this mess. Plus their Uber PC Uber pro migration ‘we’re really relaxed about people getting filthy rich’ God Tony Blair is the one who started the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fruit picking is done by seasonal EU labour. Because Brits do not want those jobs

Fruit picking is short term seasonal work. A Brit would have to sign off benefits, get paid for a few weeks, then go through the rigmarole of reapplying for benefits, getting their housing benefit and council tax etc readjusted, proving that the job had ended and going through a waiting period where they get no money while waiting to be assessed for benefits, etc. It isn’t worth the hassle.

Bejam
How is the UK responsible for Syria?
Look up how the country borders in the Middle East were drawn by the British.
Designed deliberately to make all of the countries fragmented, weak and easier to exploit for oil.

Tony Blair is the one who started the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Bliar was a sanctimonious git
but I think you'll find Dubya did the heavy lifting in both those wars.

And yes, farmers could pay £10 an hour
then your food in the shop would go up in price 30% is that what you want ?

Perhaps that’s what should happen. We spend less on food than most other countries. Our food is far too cheap, someone is obviously being exploited somewhere along the line. I find it hypocritical how people complain about unethical cheap clothing but are happy to buy unethical cheap food.

YANBU and I am a remainer, i live in a nice area, husband has a good job, big & oversubscribed but nice school most of the non white population there is not 1st gen. immigrant those things make massive differences to my perspective, if i was on a shoddy estate and felt like the landscape of my neighbourhood was changing too fast i may feel differently.

The borders that Syria has - who made those? Which countries divided up the Middle East and Africa to deliberately keep it unstable?

France and the U.K. drew boarders and enforced them to keep the region unstable so it was easier to rule.

We are absolutely to blame for the systemic instability in many areas of the world. It is a legacy of the empire we are so proud of.

It's a bit more complex than that, IMHO.

We have growing social inequality. The WC should be angry at the wealthy who are taking up a bigger and bigger slice of the pie, not immigrants who come with nothing and work hard to build up lives for themselves.

Of course wealthy people don't mind more serfs coming to work for their businesses and boost dividends etc!

One of the things I find hardest about Brexit is people focusing on immigration and not enough on the tax-dodging millionaires who funded the leave campaigns, because the EU is introducing tax reforms that would stop them siphoning off funds to off-shore havens. They're taking wealth from the poor and stashing it away, and leave voters are helping them to keep doing it.

whirlie
Fruit picking is short term seasonal work
No.
The chaps work for up to seven months solid, living in caravans moving around the farms.
You have to be young and fit to do it.
Not many unemployed young fit Brits around though.