To think secondary schools should not have unisex toilets?

[seriouslylong]

So my daughter started secondary school this year in a temporary sight and yesterday moved to the permanent sight. She came home and told me they only have unisex toilets in the school

I looked on a local Facebook page this morning and there was a parent on there asking for opinions.

I don't think boys and girls should have to share a toilet! They need their privacy at this age!

What are your thoughts? Also would be interested to hear if your children have unisex toilets at school?

I would find this awful too - there are so many issues on why. For the people who don't think it is an issue - I doubt you have ever felt anxious about using public toilets so its not surprising you don't understand other's opinions. And if you have ever felt anxious...that that is the reason why.

I think it’s great. All toilets should be unisex everywhere. Safety should not be handled by segregation but by proper security and accountability for wrongdoing. My fundamental belief. And I’ve heard all the arguments and am aware that I have the luxury of not being afraid of men in general. I am wary of being vulnerable of course and always stay alert but I want to see much more integration than segregation of the sexes. This is how we will change the image and role of women in society both in terms of our sense of self and the how men see and treat us. Not a popular opinion I am acutely aware on here.

no, I can read and see that for some children single sex were not great - but for other they were better than unisex. Have you not read all the comments from those who would/do hate mixed facilities?

It is also actually against the law for schools to not provide single sex toilet facilities and that they are, in the wider world, not as safe as single sex.

The needs and wants (if possible) of all need to be addressed, which is why I asked the poster upthread (and will ask the school in question) whether risk and equality impact assessments had been carried out.

Saucy but these toilets don't have the sink inside the cubicle.

And how many local councils have the money to do away with communal changing facilties? All the leisure centres in my borough have communal single sex changing rooms, an open room with a couple of cubicles.

For the people who don't think it is an issue - I doubt you have ever felt anxious about using public toilets so its not surprising you don't understand other's opinions.

But the point that I am trying to make is that many girls, myself and my daughter included, were too anxious to use school toilets because of the behaviour of other girls.

So.people dismissing that very real problem are also ignoring the fears of other girls. These open toilets are much safer than segregated toilet blocks.

It is also actually against the law for schools to not provide single sex toilet facilities and that they are, in the wider world, not as safe as single sex.

I don't think that the regulations do demand separate sinks - I will look them up and report back and we aren't talking about the wider world. This thread is specifically talking about school toilets.

And schools aren't part of the wider world? They don't have a role to play in preparing our children for life in the wider world?

you could be right about the sinks, I haven't seen the wording recently. Sinks inside the cubicles would probably make unisex toilets acceptable for more people.

'Separate toilet and washing facilities must be provided for boys and girls aged 8 years and over pursuant to Regulation 4 of the School Premises (England) Regulations 2012'

These are the new regulations, from 2015, and supercede the 2007 regs which were more restrictive

The contemporary document outlines ISS Regulation 23A, which simply advises:

Handwash facilities must be placed in close proximity to every toilet, while blocks must be properly ventilated and well lit.

Washrooms must be easily accessible for pupils and allow for passive staff supervision, without impacting on privacy.

Separate facilities should be provided for boys and girls over the age of eight, except for individual cubicles that can be locked from the inside and are intended for the use of one person at a time.

For children over the age of 11, suitable changing facilities with showers should be provided for PE lessons.

Staff toilets should be independent from those used by pupils, although disabled toilets may be accessed by both staff, pupils, volunteers and visitors.

There is no mention of separate sinks being needed

what I copied from is dated June 2018. The school in question has only just finished being built.

RiverTam

2015 regs supercede the ones that you reference.

They are using outdated regulations.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf

hope that's clicky. Doesn't help that the use gender and sex interchangeably in this document but par for the course these days, unfortunately. But it's clear that single sex toilet, washing and boarding facilities are within the exemptions to the Equality Act.

As I mentioned previously I am not sure the washing facilities mean sinks, and is actually referring to showers etc

Dothehappydance

You are right.

I think it is a good thing, after the initial self-consciousness they will all just get on with it. Ours have been in mixed loos throughout school and I feel like it has contributed to them being less segregated and strange about the opposite sex and bodily functions.
I'm completely horrified that the children are still shuffled off in two groups for sex-education. This routine of segregating children as soon as there is the faintest whiff of puberty is ridiculous, it just turns the opposite sex into mythical creatures.
I get so frustrated by how outdated and shortsighted this practice is. How are we ever going to have gender equality if we are so quick to define differences during childhood and adolescence?

But there are differences between men and women, it's very naive to pretend there aren't

There are differences which is why it's important that both sexes are educated about these differences and why they shouldn't be a mystery.

At my school we avoided the toilet. They were where the gangs of "cool" girls hung out, bullying anyone not in their gang, throwing things over the tops of cubicles, standing on toilets and peering over the tops, bunking off lessons, beating other girls up - they were awful places. My daughter also refused to use the toilets at school for the same reasons.
Yes, almost all of the things posters say boys are guilty of are things that girls I was in school with did.
The girls toilets were disgusting, piss on the seats, used Sanpro stuck on the walls, sinks flooded, girls sniggering at the sound of wrappers being opened etc, looking over the doors.
Worse though it was so intimidating. As someone who was bullied mercilessly by other girls I'd have welcomed the open plan toilets pictured up thread so my male friends were close by to stick up for me. Instead I avoided the toilets as much as possible and got told off by my mum for letting tampons leak and detention several times for using the staff toilets.

I think both girls and boys toilets are used by that age group to congregate out of relative sight of teaching staff. I can see why schools want to discourage it.

Of course there are differences between the sexes SnuggyBuggy - I don't think anyone capable of using a keyboard would refute that.
Gender segregation in school toilets is problematic for teenagers, especially when it is increasingly common for them to struggle with gender identity. Surely having mixed facilities makes gender identity less of an issue?
I also remember the girls loos at my school just being a hideous place filled with bitches awaiting their latest victim. Having a mixed system back then would have been SO welcome.

Regarding the sex Ed - I also think that children should learn about it all in smaller mixed groups. Less chance of the class clown turning it into a joke if there are smaller groups. Less mystery and embarrasment if they all get the same information at the same time.

The school building my DD goes to is 8 years old, these toilets are not a response to the recent gender identity/trans issues, though perhaps do offer a suitable solution, and are just the current way of doing things.

Toilets like this have been around for ages, but only now they seem to have become an issue.

Asteria you are conflating sex with gender, and that is part of the problem that children are having these days.

Sex - biology, unchangeable, inherent, observed at birth, your potential reproductive capacity - male/female, boy/girl, man/woman.

Gender - society, changeable, imposed. Masculine/feminine.

Gender identity can not and does not alter biology - your sex is your sex is your sex. We fail children enormously in implying that it does. Toilets are not and never have been separated by gender - they are separated by sex, or not, in which case they are unisex.

We appear to live in times where childhood is saturated in gendered expression, which is unnecessary and can cause untold confusion and distress when rigidly imposed, but equally where others would like us to pretend that there's no difference between men and women at all and equality means we're all the same.

I often find myself pondering what the workplace would look like if it had been set up by women in the first place (or even both sexes, equally and concurrently), rather than women being shoehorned into a set up designed for men, which is still the case.

Rambling now. Will make a cup of tea and attempt to marshall thoughts.

I'm glad to read some experience from teachers and others. The new school my son is hoping to go to later this year has ones similar to this - mostly open plan with girl full cubicles on one side, boys on the other, with sinks at the end closest to the hall (and the sanpro dispenser on one of the walls near the sink). I had meant to ask one of the girl students if there had been any issues with that but ended up discussing things more interesting to my son like food and field trips and work experience.

I can see them being easier to supervise than the standard ones, especially with them in the middle of each floor near so many classrooms and other spaces. I was just a bit confusing as I'd never seen toilets like that before and my mind's a bit naturally primed to worry about worst case scenarios. I think if one of my daughters also goes, I'd add some hand wipes to her supplies for periods just to give her a bit of piece of mind on that.