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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that barristers shouldn't ask this in rape court cases

74 replies

brizzledrizzle · 09/01/2019 06:58

" his barrister, Michelle Heeley QC, asked whether the woman had been "fairly drunk" after drinking wine, prosecco and spirits during a night out in April 2017."

She might as well have asked if it was the woman's fault Angry

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-46799539

OP posts:
AdamNichol · 09/01/2019 10:27

I don't in any way agree that a woman being intoxicated means she is responsible for her own rape

I don't think anyone has suggested this to be the case; but that the definition of rape is dependant on what she said and did - and her intoxication has a bearing on this (and a bearing on the clarity of her recollection of events in forming the accusation).

needanappp · 09/01/2019 10:33

@AdamNichol if you'd read my other posts or even continued to read the one you've quoted you'd see that I agree with the point you've made entirely...

PinkHeart5914 · 09/01/2019 10:34

If she was pissed or not is relevant, If drunk passed a certain point you may not of been able to consent, it also may effect your memory too.

Fair question if you ask me

SuperNappyBaby · 09/01/2019 10:39

Surely you can sometimes consent even if you are drunk. Years ago when I used to drink a bit more than I do now I would have slept with DP when we were both very drunk. I wasn’t raped.

OP - what sort of questions do you feel are ok for a defence barrister to ask?

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 11:28

@ashtrayheart www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3473089-Alex-Hepburn-rape-trial

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 11:35

It is very unusual in any other type of crime for the complainant to be put on the stand and forced to defend their victim statement. In rape cases it seems normal. In the Ulster rugby trial the complainant was on the stand for 6 days. It is not fair and imo it prejudices the trial because anyone can be made to look unreliable under that kind of questioning.

It isn't possible to question the alleged rapist in the same way because of how prosecutions are structured. In fact they don't even need to take the stand unless the defence calls them.

I personally think questioning the complainant in these cases should not be allowed unless there is some evidence the woman is a habitual liar. The defence could question parts of the statement without having to grill the victim like this. It is ridiculously unfair, puts women off reporting rape, contributes to rape myths and allows rapists to get away with it.

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 11:37

I also think a crime of "reckless penetration" would be very useful in cases like this. Men need to be careful when penetrating drunk women, not to be reckless regarding that woman's capacity to consent.

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 11:45

I'm copying this post from the FWR thread because it's so good.

Prof. Catharine McKinnon: Rape Redefined:

McKinnon has a useful perspective on the issue of consent and why it is out of step with rape and assault laws. It's mostly about US law but mentions the UK in various sections and the contentious nature of consent.

6. Consent definitions – in which the prosecution has to prove nonconsent – require a woman be believed concerning a sexual fact that is by its nature subjective. This is why it puts the victim on trial. Essentially, it attributes victimization to the victimized. It makes the case be about what she was thinking, or what he thought she was thinking, rather than about what he did. It makes rape occur in someone’s mind, not by his body on her body.

7. It is therefore no surprise that, in legal application, consent has been found when women are married, drunk or drugged, repeatedly said no, were asleep, comatose, just seen to be raped by several other men, threatened with deportation or false criminal charges or loss of her job. In legal operation, consent to sex is routinely found in situations of despairing acquiescence, frozen fright, terror, absence of realistic options, socially situated vulnerability, and even death. Prostituted sex is regarded as consensual because it is paid. All this is what consent actually means legally, not mistakes in what it legally means.

The often accompanying standard of mistaken belief in consent means that if the accused is found to have believed she consented, whether she did or not, it is not rape. In societies saturated with pornography, a lead pipe over the head can sincerely be believed to produce consent to sex. Further no surprise that “rough sex” is such an increasingly effective consent defense.

In other words, consent is often found in situations where considerable force was used, building into law the misogynistic assumption that women want to be forced into sex. This is the real meaning of requiring a showing of both force and nonconsent, as prevails in US state laws. The same assumptions tend to be attributed to a gay man when he claims another man raped him. He is feminized, reduced on a gendered basis.

If sex occurred, her consent is essentially presumed on the most minimal of acquaintance between the parties; the survivor has to disprove it. Socially speaking, if sex happened, or if a woman had ever had sex before, especially with the accused, consent is effectively assumed. She has to disprove it. It’s a social burden of proof women enter the law burdened by. Consent in law is consistent with economic, psychological, and hierarchical threats, so long as physical injury or life are not threatened (for which purpose rape itself is generally not considered a physical injury).
...
8. Consent as a concept was never designed to apply between two people in civil society. It was given its current meaning in Western liberal philosophy, hence Western law, as the basis for legitimizing the obligation to obey the laws of the state. Even as a fiction.. it never envisioned equal parties. It exists to rationalize the exercise of dominant power (ie the state) over its subordinates (the governed). This is what it is for. Applied to sex, he is the government, she is the governed. Its purpose is to attribute and justify the requisite obedience of the powerless to the rule of the powerful. It is about compliance.

madamegandhi.blog/2014/10/28/sex-equality-with-professor-catharine-mackinnon/

AdamNichol · 09/01/2019 11:49

@needanap
Sorry, wasn't trying to attribute that viewpoint to you; your post just gave a nicely succinct phrase that summed up a bunch of other posts (even though you weren't supporting such posts). Me being lazy. Sos.

Usernumbers1234 · 09/01/2019 11:50

Don’t be daft, of course it’s a relevant question from a defence lawyer

I’m not sure you understand what defence lawyers do

AdamNichol · 09/01/2019 12:12

It is very unusual in any other type of crime for the complainant to be put on the stand and forced to defend their victim statement

I was all set to concur with other replies to this about the nature of that crime meaning the victim needs to prove that the accused acted against their will (by commission or omission). Innocent until proven guilty, but it's hard to prove that consent wasn't given.

But what about theft? On the balance of probability, we'd all assume that the victim of a beating didn't consent to it beforehand. But what if something was taken from you by a stranger, and the stranger claimed you were a bit tipsy and consented to it being taken? Or even gave away freely (the equivalent to a drunk woman initiating sex, then not remembering any of that and believing she was raped). Would the victim of theft be put in the stand and put through the ringer about the extent to which they permissive about people taking their things?

Seniorcitizen1 · 09/01/2019 12:18

Barristers have to ask whatever questions the feel they need to ask inirder to cast doubt on the prosecution case. Not to do so would be a deriliction of their duty which could be grounds for appeal. All defendents are innocent until the jury foreman/woman delivers the verdict.

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 12:20

Exactly adam. Drunk men are at higher risk of being mugged but don't get cross examined about whether their drunkenness meant they were mistaken that they'd been mugged rather than given their money away.

volvica · 09/01/2019 12:22

Here's a question I've wondered (probably from watching Hollyoaks and the Buster Smith trial) -

Why would a lawyer choose to defend someone being prosecuted for rape/sexual abuse? Is it because they believe them or because of money?

bellinisurge · 09/01/2019 12:23

@volvica because our judicial system depends on it. Even fucking lying bastards are innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

kaytee87 · 09/01/2019 12:25

@volvica it's their duty to.

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 12:25

I hope it's because they believe in justice and that everyone has a right to a fair trial and a defence. People accused of heinous crimes have as much right to a defence as those accused of shoplifting.

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 12:29

This is interesting about jurors understanding of consent and how that can affect rape trials

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/06/quarter-of-adults-think-marital-sex-without-consent-is-not-uk-survey-finds

x2boys · 09/01/2019 12:56

Of you or someone you loved where accused of a heinous crime would you not want someone acting in your defence volvica,?

SaturdayNext · 09/01/2019 13:04

I would have thought that, given that if she was drunk a woman couldn't consent, then defence barristers would be more wary of asking this question.

It really only applies if the woman is pretty paralytically drunk. There are obviously lower levels of being drunk when the woman is still able to form and express a view as to whether she wants to consent to sex.

SaturdayNext · 09/01/2019 13:10

Drunk men are at higher risk of being mugged but don't get cross examined about whether their drunkenness meant they were mistaken that they'd been mugged rather than given their money away.

If it's the defence case that they gave their money away then for sure they will be cross examined about this. Why wouldn't they?

I once had involvement with a case where a woman was accused of stealing a number of fairly valuable items. She said she had had a relationship with the owner and he had given them to her, and ultimately fortunately she was able to prove that that was the case. Should her barrister have been prevented from cross-examining the "victim" about this?

ashtrayheart · 09/01/2019 14:26

I know Quentin - very few replies which surprised me.

QuentinWinters · 09/01/2019 15:36

It is very dominated by trans over there atm, which is a shame

Helperout · 09/01/2019 15:45

QuentinWinters of course complainants are required to give evidence in court in other types of criminal cases, they are usually the prosecution's main witness. They will have given a witness statement under caution in the police station and that statement is put to them in court and the barrister works to identify any discrepancies in that written statement and the witness's oral evidence. It is no different in rape cases.

Yes that woman was on the stand for 6 days but there were 4 defendants who all had an entitlement to cross examine her. Bear in mind that a court day is short, usually 5 hours so that length of time in the stand with 4 defendants is not unusual. I think her evidence took a day so that will show you how long these things take.

Also any defendant in ANY criminal case has a right to refrain from giving evidence, it isn't exclusive to rape trials. I think the defendants in that rape trial did take the stand and so they opened themselves up to cross examination.

You have to understand that there are lots of reasons why a rape allegation may be false and being a habitual liar is only one. The defence need to be allowed to explore other possibilities.

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