DH and DD8 fighting

[Jennifer124]

so sorry its long but please read as I need outside perspective.

DD8 is day to day a lovely girl, sweet, caring, kind, but she is waiting to be assessed for autism. she has mild sensory issues and gets overwhelmed easily, when she's mad she can lash out if she's not left alone. Since we realised she may be autistic I have looked into ways to discipline her and talk to her when she's cross that don't antagonise her, we have realised that giving her space in her room, leaving her for a while and then going back and talking to her calmly really helps, rather than trying to reason with her when she's angry.

Anyway, she does much better with warnings, eg, 10 minutes till we leave, 5 minutes till we leave, right were leaving now, rather than saying ok time to go, straight away.

The other day DH asked her to come off the Nintendo switch and get dressed, she said I've just got to finish this, he said no now, she said no, resulted in an argument and she said if he doesn't let her finish it she will smash it. he shouted at her and sent her to her room. I'm not sure of what was said etc as I was in another room but there was a lot of arguing from them, he was in her room (this is where she would have benefitted for having time to cool off, but I think he's more of the opinion if she acts up she needs immediate consequences and telling off, but it just makes matters worse)

I could hear that she was screaming at him to leave her alone and get out and he wouldn't so she was pushing him and hitting him. there was a lot of shouting from both side and a lot of banging, but then he came out and asked me to ask her to get dressed as she wont listen to him.

anyway she was banned from the switch for a certain amount of time, she apologised the next day after id spoken to her, and I thought that was that.

but this morning I read her diary (I know, but its one of the only ways I can see how she's feeling)

this is what she wrote
"Dad said he hates me and that I'm a disgusting child. It made me sad when he said he hates me, I will never forget it. He pushed me into a wall and it really hurt and I landed on lots of things and it still hurts. I wish I was never born or dead"

I rang my husband to tell him, he said she was hitting me and she hit me in the balls what was I supposed to do. I said you should have walked away, he just kept saying yes I know, ill apologise, I know its not right, but tbh it feels like he was just telling me what I want to hear.

I said that saying sorry doesn't mean its not abusive, that abusive people often feel bad and say sorry, it doesn't mean its ok.
he said I know damn well he's not abusive, but what do you call pushing an 8 year old into a wall and telling her you hate her??

For the record he is a good dad, he works hard and he is usually really good with them, he doesn't hit them as a punishment although he can be a bit scary when he shouts but the kids can be hard work. but AIBU to think a grown man can get away from a child that's hitting grabbing them without having to resort to pushing them into a wall.

Hes not a bad person but I don't think he realises how unacceptable that is, or am I overreacting?

That's encouraging, it looks like he realises how serious this was. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I was going to come back on the thread anyway to say that no-one is perfect - there's often LTB advice on MN but I defy anyone to claim they are 100% perfect. My DH has had his moments but we've grown together over the years and worked to be better and kinder to each other, and continue to try to be better parents. It's hard when you have a child who's slightly outside the norm (I can only guess how much harder it gets as you get further away from the norm). A bit of forgiveness and understanding goes a long way, towards each other and the DC.

It doesn't matter about the autism diagnosis. It is totally irrelevant. No mater how unreasonable she was being, no matter if she was being a little shit deliberately to wind him up, she's an 8 year old girl half his size. and he pushed her, hurt her. And she's his child, and he told her that he hates her. And he doesn't understand that yes, that DOES make him abusive.

He can't control himself, and even more dangerous than that he doesn't acknowledge that he's in the wrong. He's a danger to your children, all of them. When you say his shouting is 'scary', it's your (and their) instincts trying to tell you something, recognising that violence is an option for him, always has been, and always will be.

Oh, except now I've just seen that you hit her too. Poor bloody kids.

You say she was attacking your other children - why didn't you remove them from her and protect them instead of assaulting her?

@Namestheyareachangin I love how easy that sounds. I have 4 children. they were fighting, I stepped in, the other dd10 backed off but dd8 followed her, trying to hit her, I told dd8 to go into her room she slapped me, she knocked my phone off the table, dd10 was crying, dd8 was digging her nails in her arms, meanwhile ds2 was screaming terrified, I tried to console him, dd6 was crying, dd10 shut herself in the bathroom, dd8 banged the door open and started clawing at her, drawing blood, shes stronger than her sister even though she is 2 years younger, everyone was crying, dd8 stood there nipping and scratching just doing this high pitched sceam, a long loud scream like she was being tortured over over again hardly pausing for breath.

it was wrong, I have dealt with many many issues with her like this and that was the only time ive done that. I am ashamed, it was wrong. I think we have established that but I appreciate your imput

I still don't see why you couldn't have separated your two older children then left the room with the three who were not being violent. But if you genuinely believe your only option was to slap her then I'd be concerned by that frankly, as you clearly were and sought help. I just think from her perspective she no longer feels safe from violence from either of her parents, which must be incredibly scary when you're only 8.

Frankly if I were you I would request a social worker for your family, at least pending diagnosis and any support that might come out of that, as it seems you are all struggling to cope. Tell them everything (the slapping and the shoving/verbal abuse) and ask for help.

Failing that, I would sit down with each of your children individually and try to gently sound out how they feel about their father, specifically whether he has ever hit or verbally abused them. This time he did this when you were there, and you're reading your daughter's diary (I won't even start on the violation of trust that is) so you know about it. If you hadn't, you'd never have known. So who knows what else he's been doing when you're not there?

A parent telling their child that they hate them is pretty much unforgiveable. Physical abuse is terrible, but this? You sound as if you're doing all you can to help and support OP so well done you - it can't be easy at all. But your DH is just appalling.

names. I left the room with the other 3 several times, she chased after us like a wild animal and was jumping on her sister. I did not have an alternative unless I took the other in the car and drove away which obviously I couldn't do.

as for violating her trust, im not going to comment on that, I felt I needed to see what she was thinking (she will not/can not verbalise how she is feeling) and apparently in this instance I was right that there was something I needed to know that I would never have known about otherwise

Maybe you and your dh need to have a discussion about acceptable ways to deal with all your children?

A clear set of boundaries, discipline and what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour from the children and from parents.

It obviously cannot happen again, however, just saying it cannot happen again, doesn’t really address anything.

Maybe also let the children know beforehand, the consequences for unacceptable behaviour. So they are aware that parents hitting them, is not a consequence?

Namestheyareachangin You weren't there and the op didn't have the benefit of time to think about what to do. Its all very easy saying 'you should have done this' but in the moment it is very different!

She hit him in the balls. Chances are if this is the first time he’s hit her then it was instinctive. I think you really need to remove the video games as she’s clearly addicted. She’s 8. She shouldn’t have them until she can self-regulate.

She's not at all, she will maybe go on them for 2 hours a week, spread across 3 or 4 days. And quite happily comes off them on her own.

My son has Autism, playing video games is his special interest and a way to relax and unwind.

If I told him, suddenly and abruptly to stop, it would make him very anxious. He needs expected and predictable. He needs time warnings in advance or to finish that game and not start another.

If I need him to get dressed shortly, I tell him beforehand and the game does not go on. We have game rules such as no games before school etc.

Jennifer

YOU are doing a GOOD job. Don’t let anyone make you think otherwise 💐. In an extremely difficult situation you slapped her once. Once. Lightly and without leaving a mark. You didn’t feel great about it and you went to find help how to better manage her going forward. Given the state she was already in, the fact you had three other kids in a state and everything else, I think what you did in that moment, on that occasion, was understandable, and yes, acceptable. Hopefully, you now know some ways of controlling the situation to prevent it getting that bad in the future and obviously as the others are getting older you can handle it differently too. Please stop absorbing the nasty posts.

DH. You don’t know how hard he pushed her or what happened. It can take very little to make someone stumble and get off balance landing on toys or against a wall. You need to tell him to tell you honestly what happened.

However, that’s really the least of my concerns with the situation.

A bigger concern for me is him telling her she’s disgusting and he hates her. Shouting in anger I understand, telling them they’re little shits or to get off or whatever I understand. Saying she’s disgusting and he hates her? How could he? Really, just how? Then not to immediately feel crushed by what you’ve said and apologise I just don’t understand. On top of that, he’s had plenty of time to tell you what happened, to talk to her about it, to make ammends and to sort out a strategy going forward. He did NONE of that. You wouldn’t have even known if you hadn’t read her diary (which for the record I think is a GOOD thing while she’s still little, but be careful she doesn’t find out or she’ll stop using it and it’s a tool she needs).

It worries me that he’s sorry he got found out, not that it happened and he’s now playing you like a fiddle being ‘sorry’ and ‘offering’ to leave. I think you’d soon see a change in attitude if you called his bluff.

This time he did this when you were there, and you're reading your daughter's diary (I won't even start on the violation of trust that is) so you know about it. If you hadn't, you'd never have known
Well the last bit is fairly pertinent isn't it? She's 8, she's not able to express herself and it's proven to keep her safe in that OP is now aware and can take action. Whilst iwouksbt generally do it, I don't think reading a diary that talks about her Dad abusing her is a bad thing!!

OP I am curious why you didn't step in though, when he followed her to her room and you could hear the screaming. Are you scared of escalating his anger? Do you worry he might hit you bit assumed he'd never lay his hands on his kids? It's not your fault in any way I'm just curious as to whether there is another side of him that you're scared of

Addicted because she doesn’t immediately put something down the second she’s told to?! Don’t be so ridiculous.

I wouldn’t expect anyone to just put something down immediately unless there was a very good reason. A 5 minute or ‘when you’ve finished that bit’ warning is the bare minimum for anyone Earlier and more frequent reminders are good for lots of children.

...and that’s coming from someone who is (ummm...), shall we say, pretty ‘do as I say and when I say!’

ilovechristmaslights thank you so much, ive just teared up reading that. I think we would be good friends haha, you seem to se things very similarly to me.

sleepingstandingup I most definitely am not afraid of him in any way. ive never thought he would or could hit me or the children. I often step in but I feel I undermine him sometimes so I was ( whilst comforting ds3 who was crying about the shouting) trying to let him deal with the situation. I could hear shouting but not really what was being said

OP this is difficult to read. Regardless of your dd's diagnosis (or not) your husband is not behaving appropriately as an adult in charge of the emotional, physical welfare and wellbeing of a child. A parent needs to adapt their behaviour for the best interests of the child, including their thinking. Your husband appears to have the approach that your dd should bend/change her behaviour and be obedient /subservient or be subject to physical force and he stated he sees nothing wrong with this and so will continue to do so.
Whilst you have said that on a single occasion you slapped dd on the face, this is clearly something that you regret and have looked for other solutions to the difficulties and have implemented them - the differencebetween the two is legion.
Please seek official help for your husbands difficulties, he's told you he won't change how he behaves (unless someone official /bigger than he is tells him too) he isn't regarding you or your dd as significant enough to listen too. Your dd may or may not get a diagnosis of autism but it's him that either needs to change or be removed. Please for the sake of the welfare of your children seek official assistance for his behaviour.

He told her that he hates her?

She’s right. She’ll never forget that.

Does he? Did the truth come out in anger?

no he doesn't hate her. he loves her, he does genuinely love them. he just doesn't deal well with her when her behaviour gets that extreme. I mean I didn't either but ive worked on dealing with it better before it escalates to that point.

he is saying he knows it was wrong, that he will talk to her and reassure her that he loves her. I don't think he realises quite how much of an impact telling someone, a child in particular, can affect them

I have two teen boys aged 14 and 18, I can probably count on two hands the number of times they ever fought when younger. They were very well behaved children. So I never delt with this at home.

However I taught children with disabilities and adults with disabilities and mental health problems. I’m also an instructor in physical intervention. Over the years people have said to me ‘I don’t know how you do it!’, ‘god you deserve a medal for that’, ‘you are amazing for that’ and so on.

No, I’m none of those things along with the hundreds and thousands of others who do the same work.

The ones who are amazing are the parents. Who go to work all day long, come home to cook and clean, have a few children to do homework with etc, and then also have a child that has challenging behaviour to deal with.

Those of us who work in the environment go home when we are tired. Parents don’t get that break. It’s easy for those who have never been in the position to make comments. But it’s also easy do lose your cool, when you are at the end of your tether and tired!

The hardest thing is for a parent to hold up their hands and say ‘we’ve done wrong, we need help’. So don’t kick yourself too hard OP, you’ve both done wrong, you’ve both admitted it. Now you need to sit down and explain you are sorry with your dd in a way she can understand. You also need to agree as parents how you are going to manage her behaviour in the future. Come to an agreement on de-escalation skills etc. What will work for your dd, and agee to use them. Agree that if one of you are losing control, the other steps in with a cool head etc.

Wishing you all the best OP x

I wouldn't show your hubby this thread if I were you, he has admitted that he was wrong and sounds like he is genuinely remorseful, most likely knew it was wrong when he did it but went in to defensive mode.

If he knew complete strangers were attacking him over it I don't think that would go down well.

I agree with PP that she wont forget what he said but if he can apologise properly and it never happens again then I think that he can repair the damage done.

Nice to see all the goodie two shoes on here who never said or did anything wrong when parenting their children (if they have any) put on their judging caps but in reality we all do things we regret with our kids, it's when we repeat those (or do similar) things that we become bad parents, doing it once and recognising you need help to do better makes you a good parent.

If he knew complete strangers were attacking him over it I don't think that would go down well.

Well at least nobody on here has chucked him against a wall, he might be grateful for that?

The whole thing is outrageous. I have an autistic 8 year old, please believe me, I know the sheer frustration of it all. I can’t see a scenario in which pushing any child at all against a wall and telling them you hate them is acceptable. He needs to seek help. I can’t see how everyone on this thread finds it all so understandable! I totally get that you’ve realised that slapping her was unacceptable, but still this should never have happened at all. Ever. You both need strategies to manage your own selves, not just your daughter but your reaction to her.

@thewaronpeace don't take one sentence of my post and repost it like that, it is now out of context.

I come from abusive parents.... my default parenting method when I get to snapping point is to repeat that behaviour.... every single day I need to work hard to parent in a calm manner.... every....single....day. That is why I find it, not excusable but understandable. Perhaps OP and her husband had great parents but I always think people who push/hit their children probably had the same done to them as kids.

Some of us were raised with shitty parents who ingrained shitty parenting methods in us from day dot, it is a fight to throw those off. I am going to assume that your parents were not abusive to you and so you have no understanding of that constant battle, which is actually a good thing, it must make life much easier when you actually have an example of what you should do in tough times.

I do fight against it as not only do I want my children to be raised with love, not hate and anger but I want them to also have the default setting of love and not anger when it comes to their children. Life isn't black and white, there are lots of grey areas in between.

@jennifer124

The situation you described about your children crying and your dd8 getting into the bathroom to claw and scratch your dd10 sounds incredibly stressful for all of you. The screaming and shrieking alone would drive me to distraction. You’re right that you made a bad decision and I don’t think people should lambast you for that. It’s easy to say what we would do but in the situation it’s much more fraught and unpredictable. Don’t give yourself a hard time.

Speak to your husband about acceptable ways to manage your daughter.