Siblings and family house dispute unfolding

[Waitaway1970]

To cut long story short my DF put his house as joint tenancy with my DB and myself many years ago. He did it to ensure security as he was getting remarried and so was DB and he didn’t want the eggs in one basket- I naively agreed at the time...I was very young and was doing him a favour with no intention of any financial gain as insirally he had said the house was for DB (who currently lives in it with his wife and children but DF pays for the mortgage etc) We are 7 siblings and over the years there have been various family dramas/ presently 5 siblings are barely on speaking terms with DB, DF and to some extent me as well. Recently siblings have confronted DF about his choice of joint tenancy with me and DB and have expressed their rage at his choice. Problem is DF keeps changing his mind about how things should be split after his life. At times he says since his other children have not bothered with him for years, he feels they deserve nothing from him and he doesn’t want them to get share in his house( he has been the only one to pay mortgage and contributions alone). Other times he says they are also his children and should be given some rights. I have expressly asked him to tell me what I should do with ‘my share’ if something should happen to him and he has indicated that I should give them ‘something’ but then quickly adds it should not be to the same value as what I would get or DB would get. We get taken care of him etc and he feels let down by the others. I want to do the right thing and have spent nearly a year trying to reconcile their differences but it’s all very complicated and now the house has aggravated things further. DF is elderly and in some ways doesn’t seem to care to sort things out in his lifetime which I’m worried about as it will leave all the burden on me to sort out. If DF says expressly they are to get nothing from him, do we go with that? Or other times when he says they should get ‘something’? He says he will make a will but hadn’t done so as yet and probably won’t get round to it...I feel the other siblings should be given a fair share but I know my DB will not be agreeable to this... which will cause a huge bust up between him and I in the future...your thoughts please

Also, I guess my question is, does a parent have the (moral) right to cut a child/children out of inheritance if he chooses? There are lots of past history issues between him and them

Surprisingly similar to another thread running at the moment, but at least you can see the possible outcome.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3470622-Siblings-and-family-house-dispute-unfolding

I was going to say this sounds similar to another thread but sassitude beat me to it.

So is the house joint tenants with you father and brother (rather than tenants in common) and aftehr and brother are both married (to spouses who may well have claims on the house on a divorce or death.

Let us assume brother stays married and you do and father dies before his second wife does. She inherits his share. That third share is probably under the inheritance tax limit and I think because brother lives there you are probably all okay for capital gains tax purposes too but those are certainly 2 areas to consider - IHT and CGT. Also as the property is in your name if you bought a new property now I think youy have to pay 3% extra stamp duty because it is a second property under the new rules.

So leaving all that aside if father dies and step mother lives she probably will want to continue to live there with your brother and his family and the 2 of them would then buy you out of your third share so they do not lose their home.

In my view the father should have left a bit of money to his new wife or a right to her to stay in the house until she dies and everything else split between the 7 siblings. However unless brother and you are prepared to give back your shares now father cannot force that change. All he could do is leave his third share to the other 5 siblings and his second wife.

Is the other thread your sil?

In England we have freedom of testamentary capacity so he can leave his house to whichever children he chooses. Unless he is supporting them or has promised them assets which they have relied on receiving. However if he does not provide for a spouse she can bring a claim after his death. Where is she?

Hang on, you've posted this before, from a different prospective.

The thread lined to above is the same OP.

Or actually the link above is this thread!!! Oops!

In the other thread the father has been dead for a couple of years 😳

DF is elderly and in some ways doesn’t seem to care to sort things out in his lifetime which I’m worried about as it will leave all the burden on me to sort out.

Why will it be down to you to sort out? It's his money/his problem to sort out.

I would just leave him to it and let the chips fall where they may.

That's a link to this thread. There is another one somewhere though. In that one, the DF is already dead and the OP is married to one of 5 siblings.

Book an appointment with a solicitor and take him to make his will. You don't want him to die intestate as that can be a nightmare to resolve.

So as it stands, you and DB will inherit? Can you and DB agree on what should happen with the house? If so, then just let it go and when your dad dies, you and DB do what you've agreed on.

As far as the question of excluding children. If you have children who have not been a part of a parent's life, or especially who have not shared in the care of the parent, then yes I feel they should be excluded (or have their share reduced). I don't feel an inheritance should be guaranteed just because you're a child of the deceased. It should be something someone deserves because of the love and care they've shown that parent.

I really hope this is genuine and that the other thread is about the same thing!

I agree - get him to make a will with a solicitor.

Why don't you sever the joint tenancy so that DF, DB and you hold as tenants in common in equal shares. Then df can leave his share in his Will to whoever he wants.

This is a fucking moronic setup that's been concocted.

Your father needs to do this legally and clearly, otherwise he's just leaving a shit storm of legal issues for you all to deal with when he dies, it's inevitable that it'll be prolonged, costly and cause rifts.

Tell him to get himself to a lawyer, do the conveyancing properly, and make a will.

It's his mess to sort out OP, and he's the only one who can - otherwise we look forward to your thread in a few years which has all sorts of tax, legal and moral gremlins in.

Why do people think they know how to best set up a complex estate without getting professional advice? It simply causes heartache for the surviving relatives when they die.

If I were in your position, I’d split everything 7 ways when the time comes. Money problems cause family rifts which go on for generations. I’d want to avoid that.

Parents can leave whatever they like to whoever they like.

As per the previous thread, if you are joint tenants your father will not have a share to leave anyone - the house will automatically be yours and your brothers. If you change to tenants in common, you will keep your share and your father can leave his share to whoever he likes, or intestacy rules will apply to his share.

xenia there is no mention of the DF having a second wife - or any surviving wife!

It is very rare for joint tenancies to be issued except for married couples, so I suspect more likely that it is tenants in common. That would actually be better.

Assuming the DM has passed away, if he dies intestate, the portion of the house already registered for you and DB would probably go to each you with the other portion going tin equal parts to the 7 children, including you and DB.

Other PPs are right - this is a mess and needs sorting urgently.

Warpdrive the legal and financial implications here (cap gains tax, inheritance tax or whatever) means it simply won't be as straight forward as "split it seven ways".

That's also ignoring probate costs, professional fees to sort out the father's mess when he dies, and any debts the estate is liable for.

Op can't just "give a portion to siblings" willy nilly, and it sounds like the father here hadn't got the slightest clue about creating such a mess when he decided to set it up ameteur style in the first place. That's the problem!

@SassitudeandSparkle that link is for THIS thread

Sorry, not even on the yet so no excuses (no dry January here).

I meant this one (I think!). A similar tale but this is further down the path and also without a will. Important to get something written down about intentions.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3468925-AIBU-to-think-there-should-not-be-equal-split

I am not a lawyer.
But my understanding is that under English & Welsh inheritance law, UNLIKE MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, a person can leave in their will what they own to whoever they want. There is no legal obligation to include living spouse, ex-spouse or children in the will. This may not be a wise move, but there is no obligation to make provision.

If your father dies intestate/without a will, then his estate/assets are distributed to a strict formula/hierarchy of family relationships determined by English & Welsh inheritance law. This means that should your father’s share of the house pass into his estate & he dies intestate, his living spouse will have first call on his estate.

Should you be in Scotland, then inheritance law there has different conditions.

Bluntly, does your father have capacity to undertake changing the tenancy conditions, &/or making a meaningful, useful & fair will??

Should he not have the capacity to instruct a solicitor to set up a legally binding document & his wishes waver, then I read your post as from someone looking to find a form of resolution & put in plan what YOU find fair & morally acceptable.

Amazingly, many people in this country who have children, own considerable assets etc do not have any will or what they have is either out- to-date or invalid wills, so your father is not unusual, & the dilemmas & family feuds you anticipate are the stuff of many a long standing grievance dragged through courts etc. So Waita you are not alone.

You are not obliged to put right what your father choses to do in his lifetime. This is critical & key. Whilst anyone has this sense of obligation on behalf of another, then they are an easy target for others who wish to exploit their uncertainty. So put aside what others think they may expect from you. That’s their opinion, not your father’s. It is not your job to be the peacemaker for a bunch of adults who have made their choices over the years. Indulging in this role will bring you no greater love & many years of stress, unhappiness & conflict.

This is the lesson for us all: if you want your wishes carried out when you die then get thee to a solicitor to make a will, otherwise things will get done as the law stands. Same applies to paying tax on yr estate.

Thank you everyone for your input. I’ve seen the other thread- no I’m not double posting and yes this is genuine. DF has settled finances with wife so she is not expecting anything from current house- this is their agreement. DB and I disagree on what should happen- he feels other siblings are undeserving and says he won’t give them anything whereas I feel it will cause such a huge problem it’s not worth excluding the others. DF is of sound mind etc. I will have to get him to solicitors. Thank you all.