To ask how possible it would be to be a single mother and junior doctor?

[MakeshiftMother]

I’m a single mum to one child. I always regretted not training as a doctor and may have the opportunity to do so now as a career change. But I’m wondering if it is too ridiculous an idea because of the hours. DC would be in early primary when I was an F1. My family are hands-on and supportive, and live nearby, but of course there are no guarantees about how much they’d be able to help then. I’d plan to go less than full time a little later but not sure yet whether I could afford the salary cut in the earlier years.

I’m hoping there might be some doctors on here, perhaps even who have done a similar thing, who could advise.

I want to be a midwife but even though I have a husband the reality is I just don't have the support network to do with childcare. You would need round the clock childcare on tap for many years and it's not something that improve once qualified either.
Have a read of This is going to hurt by Adam Kay. It shows the brutal reality of being a junior doctor and the hours involved.

So DP is a registrar currently and MY GOD is it hard work!

It’s the on call nights and long days which are the worst but he rarely gets finished on time and they’ve stuck him at a hospital 2 hours drive away (despite there being one literally opposite our house 😡)

I suppose you could go part time but you’d need to consider what type of doctor you want to be- surgeon/anaesthetics/orthopaedic (anything 24/7 and hospital based) from my understanding requires a training programme and they’re competitive!

No guarentee they would accommodate your ‘part time’ hours and if they did it would take you longer to complete!

If you just want to be a bog standard ‘doctor’ or maybe even a GP- it could work!

Personally I think it would be a nightmare with a young child but I admire your ambition! Xx

I'm in a Facebook group with over 17,000 other doctor mums and see regular posts asking for advice about unsuitable placements, unfortunately @welshweasel
I don't think it happens anywhere near as often as it once did and most people are accommodated as best as possible. It's very likely that the OP would be given sensible placements especially as a single mother, I agree, but also important to know there are no guarantees and it can be a bit of a slog of appealing etc.

And re PurpleDaisies comment above, if you have dependents you are guaranteed to be placed in your local deanery, and within a reasonable commute of where you live. So while it might not be the absolute most convenient hospital for you you definitely won’t be sent miles and miles away.

That’s how it is supposed to work. It often doesn’t though.

A friend of mine did it. She was a single mother to one at the time & had done a science degree while he was small. Then when he got older she went to do medicine. A short while into it she met her now fiancé & went on to have 2 more children with him all while being a medical student. She’s also moved house in this time. I have no idea how she did it. She’s definitely super human!!

I could barely look after myself when I was a junior doctor, never mind another person.
But go for it if you will always regret not doing it.

Please speak to medical schools and deaneries, there is some woeful mid information on this thread.
Part time training is provided for in all specialities, its a legal requirement that deaneries will provide this.
Deaneries are much better and infact pro active about helping trainees with carers responsibilities.
Yes the days are long and there are nights as well but you get the next day off, something I never did when I was a junior.
There are also so many opportunities to go into areas of medicine that are not so onerous... Public health, occy health, academia, research, medical journalism, ethics, law etc.
Many professions require long hours, exams and on going training.. My partner is a banker and he works 14hr days most days. As a grad entry trainee he says this was considered normal and they often worked longer, he still now a vp of a bank works at the weekend and late into the night. He gets shunted around the world and has moved for his job multiple times.
I am not complaining just pointing out that many careers require sacrifice and hard work, but bring great rewards, medicine is very much one of those.

Admittedly my sister is not a parent but she is just about to turn 30 and still has horrible shifts and loads of exams. Even if you request time off for really important stuff (like weddings), they can still change your shifts 6 weeks in advance as this is deemed sufficient notice. We as a family have often been appalled by how she has been treated (regardless of the hospital or deanery involved) and her short answer is simply "They don't care about your life." You need to think long and hard about how far your relationships will suffer.

My DH is a junior doctor. You need a really solid plan for childcare - you will need childcare well outside of usual hours including overnight, potentially several nights in a row, which I cannot imagine arranging without live in support although perhaps you have family willing? It'll be easier as a student, but you won't get much control over where your placements are - you can request close to home placements due to circumstance but it's not guaranteed. From PPs it seems to vary by medical school as to what's expected of you (DH's med school certainly didn't have placements 9-4, they were full shifts - and he graduated less than 5 years ago so it's not as if he trained a long time ago).

When you've qualified you will be working a variety of shifts depending on where you work. You will spend your first few years on 4 month "blocks" in different departments and/or hospitals with little control over which rotation you get (you submit order of preference but it's not as simple as just choosing to do a job at your local hospital) and that's assuming you get a place in your local Deanery upon graduation which you might not if it's highly sought after. You might be working stretches of nights (DH works either 3 or 4 in a row) and some places do 3 or 4 long days in a row while others do single long days every week. Some get rest days before or after, some don't. Shifts can be changed at short notice (and rotas from one block to the next can be completely different) and leave can only be taken around on-call duties which it's up to you to swap with others if you need a particular time off. Admittedly it would be easier to do this part time but you'd still need to do the same proportion of your on-call shifts (i.e. 50% of your rota on call shifts if you work half time). You might get to choose which on call shifts you do as long as you meet that proportion, you might not. All specialities including GP require a training programme (which would involve more rotations that you don't have absolute control over), unless you come out of training and work as a trust grade doctor or a locum but this will mean you won't progress salary wise. There is also the expectation that you don't just walk out of the door on the dot of ending your shift. You'll need contingency plans for if shifts overrun.

You'll also need to do a lot of extra-curricular stuff (exams, conferences, courses) which can cost a lot - especially important if you want to get into an even remotely popular speciality and exams obviously essential to progress up the ladder.

And not all hospitals are particularly supportive of their F1/2s as some PPs have said they are. Some of DH's rotations have been in supportive hospitals/departments, some have very much not.

Only you know if you have the support network/finances to cover the necessary childcare. Is it really a now or never situation? There were plenty of people in their 40s in DH's graduating cohort, if you're worried about age.

Which University would you be studying at?

The one I’m at (I’m a Biology Undergrad) is Athena Swan accredited and the Graduate Entry Medicine degree they run is undergoing huge changes in the next few years (so much so that I’m actually considering going for it...) in order to be more single mother friendly due to the amount of women rejecting places when offered them.

Might be worth looking at if any Unis you’re looking at have something similar...

Most universities have access to free childcare for eligible students. Just do your research as to universities and you should be fine.

Most universities have access to free childcare for eligible students.

I don’t think medical school is the problem, it’s the actual job. Medical school is the easy part.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to post with your experiences, thoughts and advice. It is massively helpful.

I have read This Is Going To Hurt, and have some close friends who are doctors. I realise it is a lot to weigh up but do feel a strong pull towards it. I wouldn’t think twice were it not for DC. We are both immensely lucky though to have family who are very supportive would help give DC stability and routine. They have offered to help with overnights etc when the time comes, but of course nothing is guaranteed.

I am a teacher so (pre mat leave) am used to 80 hour weeks (and did evenings and weekends on site in one job at a boarding school) but of course it’s very different being able to mark/plan at home, even if the number of hours on the job may be similar.

I’m not yet sure on a specialty. I am thinking medicine rather than surgery, and paediatrics would fit with my background and interests. I have been thinking GP with a special interest in paediatrics could be a good option, but really I’d be going to med school with an open mind about that.

The med school where I would train, if I were lucky enough to get in to it, does have an Athena Swan Silver award. They have seemed very keen to support parents/single parents based on my inquiries. But my main concern is managing the job itself after training is over. I’d hope to go part time quite early on, but need to weigh this up against only having my salary coming in for DC.

Being honest, most people who qualify are going to be GPs. You should go into it thinking you are v likely to be a GP.

Does that appeal? Especially given how many unhappy GPs there are. There is a high chance you will just recreate the work environment of teaching but in medicine.

I'd honestly say that based on my experience of friends who are paediatricians it is not a family friendly career.

GP is far and away the most supportive of part-time working and training, and of their trainees - a lot of other training schemes still view you as just ward cannon fodder.

It's great to have very supportive family. I used to have that too. Then my dad had a traumatic brain injury and my mum became his carer, with all the other extended family help that used to come to me going to my dad. I've given up work for now as we just couldn't cope with DH's shifts, my clinical work (and I don't even do shifts) and the childcare. We are looking at me going back to work but cannot work out how to do the school holidays without getting a nanny (which we couldn't really afford). DS 2 has an ASD and is hard to look after and DS1 wants to go on holiday or spend time at home during the school hols, not be sent to holiday clubs.

I'm just saying that we were coping but then add a child with SN and an out of the blue accident to my previously fit dad and we were scuppered. Luckily we can get by on DH's salary. But it is not great.

People are saying that it isn't medical school they would worry about it's being a junior doctor. But I would also add that once you get to be a GP or a consultant you don't have the protection of the deanery anymore and there is an expectation of ongoing responsibility for the care if your patients (if you have your own patients).

DH and I would frequently get called in when we weren't working if something happened in our specialist area.

I am considering getting work as a TA because at least I would be earning some money and I would be able to cover the school holidays.

Sorry for this readership I should say that DS2 has an autism spectrum disorder, not an atrial septal defect.

OP Brilliant news on the Athena Swan. My University are incredible with me. My tutor has already encouraged me to go for GEM. My only stumbling block is the first 18 months are in the next city over so I’d need to learn to drive before then (I have ADD and Dyspraxia so it’ll be tricky!) but my DC will be 15/13/6 by then so should be easier to manage the longer days etc.

Pathology is my area of interest and if I can’t do GEM I can still work in that area with my Biology degree, just be doing the background lab work rather than being a Pathologist. (I’m also 32 so the training after medical school would be very long.)

@Namestheyareachangin Decent amount of benefits? £60 per week plus £20.70 child Benefit. That's all any single mother gets (plus housing Benefit If entitled). Roughly same on universal credit.
It's also negligible as to whether she will even be entitled to any of it (besides Child Benefit) as she will inevitably have a student loan that will bring her over the capital allowance for benefits....

@MakeshiftMother I suggest reading 'This is going to hurt - The secret diaries of a Junior Doctor' Not only is it hilarious, but it gives you a very intimate insight into what it's like and what the schedule is like for a newly qualified doctor. Good luck! X

I bailed out after med school. I have no regrets. I do have a long term disability but no kids. The medical school were very unsupportive.

I think it’s definitely doable as a student.
As a Junior though? You will pretty much need on tap around the clock care unless things have changed significantly.

@MummyLife2018

I still get CB and full amount of tax credits. My student loan/grant totals is 11k and due to being single, only 8k of that is classed as an income.

I also get 80% of my childcare paid by SF and Uni pays the other 20%.

Because being a single parent should not be a barricade to education. They have levelled the playing field finances wise.

(pre mat leave) am used to 80 hour weeks

I presume that means OP's DC is < 1 yr old, more like < 6m old.

The earliest you could apply is autumn 2019, earliest could start = autumn 2020. 5-6 yrs (not a school that requires intercalation?) gets to child = 7 yo. Then 5-7 yrs of further training (the long hours Adam Kay talks about). Your child will be 12yo, and at that point, almost the only cases you ever see are the complicated ones (except when hospital makes you work locum in completely different depts & you get to feel extra clueless).

I wouldn't rate Athena Swan (any color) to mean anything. Where I work, It means 99% of staff got their appraisals up to date & filled in the annual survey. I know there are other parts to AS, but those other parts are the easy lip service parts.

Would you consider Physician's Associate degree? Then would be looking to finish training & start making a real difference to patients in spring 2021, not aiming for completing training in spring 2031.

@RolandDeschainsGilly how amazing to read of all you are achieving, alongside raising three children! (Already an achievement in itself!). I hope that the driving will be do-able, but if not then it sounds like you the background lab work could be up your street. Best of luck with it! (I'm 30 so we're similar ages).

@MedSchoolRat Thank you for writing. It would certainly be a long old process, though potentially not quite as long getting going as you wrote (and graduate courses can be 4 years), as I'm in the middle of the application process for this year. Regarding the Physician's Associate Degree, thank you and it is an option I hadn't known about; I don't have a Life Sciences degree, though, and also would ultimately want the full responsibility of a doctor.

@Tweakanddashi I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties in your family. What a shock and an adjustment. You're absolutely right that childcare offers can't be relied upon because things can come up out of anyone's control; and thank you for that reminder. I hope you find a way to go to work in a way that suits your family. I did know one person who left careers in both teaching and midwifery to become a HLTA. The last I heard, she seemed to find it rewarding as she had a lot of autonomy in the classroom without the burden of excessive planning and marking. But I do also know a couple of people who have gone on to be science teachers without having any teacher training, and one of them is enjoying it.

@AnnaMagnani I'd heard that through the grapevine about paediatrician training too. I would be content with GP, I think.

@Mummylife2018 thank you! I have read it.

I'm a consultant radiologist having trained less than full time (LTFT) in radiology as I had 3 children. It's an excellent career to fit in with children and can easily be worked part time. The training does often involve night shifts now whereas I did the old fashioned on call system. Definitely one to consider.