To think that with a bad sleeper it's either cosleep or sleep train?

[LisaSimpsonsbff]

At my wits end, would prefer no bashing (but accept I may get some, I wanted the traffic of AIBU!). My baby will be six months in a couple of days. He has been getting steadily a worse sleeper since around four months, with a couple of periods of brief respite - he wakes up around 6 times a night, with the longest period of sleep between bedtime at 7pm and wake-up at about 10pm (which means it's possible but restrictive for me to get in some sleep then). He then wakes around every 60/90 minutes. I was feeding him back to sleep every time, but that's stopped working and we get long, and very unhappy, awake periods. Things were a bit better when he slept in a Next To Me but he outgrew it (kept waking up hitting the side) and there is no physical way to fit his cotbed alongside our bed - the Next to Me only just fitted.

So, since he outgrew the Next To Me I've been taking him into our bed more and more as this didn't stop the wakings but getting out of bed every time was killing me. This got more frequent over Christmas, when we were staying with family for nearly two weeks and very conscious of him waking up other people, so we were resorting to him sleeping with us earlier and earlier in the night. I've always hated cosleeping - I sleep dreadfully with him in the bed - but was willing to accept this but then on New Years' Day woke up to find I'd pulled the covers, which I'd carefully put below my waist, up over me and over his head in the night and that I was also partially lying on him - he was very deeply asleep so didn't wake instantly when I tried to wake him and that 10 seconds felt like the longest and by far the worst of my life; I was retching with horror in the belief that I had killed him. Writing this now is making me cry. He was fine (though very cross at me shouting at him and shaking him awake!) but I don't want to ever feel like that again, ever in my life. To be very clear : I absolutely know that cosleeping can be very safe and works brilliantly for a lot of people - I'm not at all anti-co sleeping in principle - but I now feel that I never want to do it again and that that is a very hard line for me.

The question is what my alternatives are? If I get up to feed him six times a night I basically don't sleep, and I'm back at work this week (I work mostly from home and DH is now on leave with him, so this isn't a very rough transition for DS; I don't actually think he's noticed so far, though we're only on day two!). There is also what probably adds up to two hours or more of him crying across the night as I keep trying to put him in his cot after he falls asleep feeding, failing, and having to rock him as he cries. It can take six or seven attempts to do this (which is why we gave up on putting him in his cot while staying with other people). There is considerably more crying, and usually total failure, if DH tries to do this without me feeding him first, so him taking over night wakings means more tears and even less sleep for everyone. Part of me wonders whether we should bite the bullet and do a form of sleep training (the only one I'll currently consider is gradual retreat) so at least the crying is, hopefully, 'going somewhere'. Part of me feels bad for considering it. But everyone I know seems to either cosleep or sleep train (or have a magical sleeping baby), and I wonder if I'm being unrealistic to even think it's possible to do neither? AIBU to think that? And what would people do?

I spend a lot of my working life helping families with sleep problems. You really need to find someone locally who will mentor you through the process as I don't think you will manage on advice alone. The starting point is teaching your baby to nap in his cot without either feeding him to sleep or rocking than a managed gradual withdrawal. Co-sleeping will make it worse and controlled crying/crying it out is mean. Get the naps sorted, then the bedtime. He should need no more than one feed in the night if that. If he feeds that much in the night, it will affect his daytime feeding. Your health visitor may be well trained in sleep management or may not

Hire someone to help you with the sleep training. Worth every penny.

With DD1 I also used to wake up in a panic that I’d suffocated her even though she slept in a bedside cot. It is a horrible anxiety. Anyway she hated and still hates cosleeping. I used to rage seeing all advice online about shit sleepers is to cosleep.

Co sleeping didn’t work with my bad sleeper - she just flapped around and grizzled at me because she couldn’t sleep. The only way to get her back to sleep was long rocking sessions, multiple times a night. We eventually sleep trained using a local sleep trainer to help do controlled crying and tbh it was a bloody miracle. It wasn’t fun but we were all - including DD - so much happier and healthier after it. And it only took one (very tough) day. There are negatives to cc but there are also many many negatives (including safety concerns) about being exhausted day in day out.

PS if you can’t find a local person to help, there are sleep trainers who will work with you via phone/text, some will be available 24 hours a day for the first few days.

Hi OP.

Interested to see what everyone else thinks.

I also have a 6 month old and I’m in exactly the same situation! Literally everything is the same as you. I think it’s a combination of teething and meeting milestones.

I can’t do controlled crying. It’s just not me. She gets hysterical and I’ve read some horror stories. Personally I’m fine with co sleeping. She ends up in our bed most nights (husband gets kicked out). We have put a travel cot in our room now (couldn’t fit actual cot and like you, she outgrew snuzpod). She seems to sleep better in it as she doesn’t kick the bars and likes to scratch the mesh. We have put an extra blanket on the bottom to make it more comfy. It’s temporary and not ideal but like you say, she just can’t go into her own room when she’s up this much. I would lose my sanity!

How is weaning going?

Just to add in the travel cot we have had some 3 hour stints and the other day we gave some baby rice before bed to try to fill her up which I think worked so going to try that again this evening (I know it has no nutrition but need to fill her up and porridge/ toast seems to give her constipation)

We did try co sleeping and eventually turned to CC. It took 2/3 nights of hell but after that DS would fall asleep by himself within minutes of being put to bed. Before that he'd fight sleep and end up hysterical regardless of whether or not we tried soothing him so by the time we tried CC we felt we didn't have much left to lose and it meant far less tears overall. So, so worth it. He's 5 now and still an amazing sleeper.

Some won't sleep train. It isn't always a miracle cure. We tried consistently for months and was hell. He started sleeping through more consistently around 6 months ago at 2.5. and by consistently, I mean 4 or more nights a week.

Some kids are bad sleepers whatever you do.

Good luck with whatever you try.

Just to add my experience, in case it gives you any details to help, is my dd who sleeps brilliantly once she’s out but getting there has been a battle every night. Cosleeping worked for us thankfully (I slept in fluffy pj’s, dressing gown and thin blanket to keep warm and don’t really move in my sleep as a rule) but every method I read and tried failed miserably. I got stupidly obsessed with trying to ‘fix’ it and in all honesty think I made things worse.

In the end, when I went back to work at about nine months, I just went with what worked = cosleeping. Truthfully I was far too exhausted to keep trying anything else and mum-guilt of being back at work put me off causing her any further distress.

Dd is three now and we’re still cosleeping but she now goes off to sleep independently which is a huge thing as far as I’m concerned. The next step is getting her in her own room which is coming in baby steps but she needs to drop her remaining last nap for this to completely work as she still takes a long time to fall asleep.

The one thing I can completely correlate to her ability to fall asleep independently is teething. Every single tooth seemed to bother her immensely. Add that to being a very cuddly child and it was the perfect storm.

I suppose my main point is that if what you try doesn’t work (and I sincerely hope it does) it’s worth taking a step back and adapting your approach from what does work and accepting what you have to change to achieve what you both need/want I.e. sleep!

It’s hard, but children are in a constant state of development and change. It’s really not the end of the world or making any sodding back rods. It’s just meeting your child’s needs the best you can whilst preserving your own sanity. If that means sleep training, cosleeping, feeding, or even playing cartoons then so be it.

If they can self settle it makes a huge difference. We're working DS towards doing "pick up put down" sleep training. I started a while back and it was an utter fail, he couldn't go from feeding to sleep to that so we now hold him while he gets himself to sleep. The fact he can now self settle has meant overnights are now 2 wakes not 8 and also porridge before bedtime routine. We never let him cry properly, we let him grizzle but not get worked up. Its taken 2 months and he self settles in minutes next to us, next step is doing that in his cot.

Its hard work but worth it

Have you had a look at LittleOnes, OP? It's a routine but not as strict as [holds breath and dons hard hat] Gina Ford. Loads of helpful advice about gentle sleep training methods in there. You could always start with comforted crying, where you put baby down but sit touching and comforting them constantly. The one thing they stress is the long sleep at lunchtime to ensure baby sleeps well at night but also to make sure they don't go to bed over/under tired in the evening.
Or try looking into a sleep consultant or maternity nurse, as PP have suggested. They are normally able to get results pretty quickly.

For us, CC, no question. Took a couple of nights (first night in particular was AWFUL) but you see an improvement quickly. Strongly suggest you as source of milk stay well clear, time for dad to earn his stripes (as said above - you will be crying in another room). Be on the same page before you start - the two of you need to stay strong, and keep at it - if you give up half way you have taught them that it's worth perservering! It is a brutal process but effective. My biggest tip is look at the clock - what feels like the longest period of your life is actually only a minute.

I do feel for you as I have been there myself with DS1. He was terrible from the off and would only sleep in our bed and still does now at 4 (although it works well for us as we now all like this as a family, and space-wise it works out well that we all sleep in the same room).

I did the controlled crying and it just made my son really anxious and he threw up. I'll never forget once walking in to the room and seeing him in the cot all blank eyed and really fearful. After that, I just accepted it was what it was. My son is quite an affectionate character though, so it may be different for you.

I was terrified of cosleeping too, but found I was putting myself and DS in unsafe situations in the beginning. I would take him out and nurse him while sat up on the sofa while he was laid on the nursing cushion, which is probably far more unsafe than in the bed. What I found helped was ensuring there is enough space in the bed first (might mean kicking DH out for a while) and tucking the sheets in so they can't ride up. Keep all pillows clear of the baby too. Your health visitor can advise on safe cosleeping.

Best of luck whatever you choose. I hope you manage to get more sleep in the end.

Argh, very reluctant to pay a sleep consultant - do people really think this is a necessity? I can see how the support would be helpful but we definitely can't afford someone who would be in the house overnight so we're still going to have to bite the bullet ourselves ultimately, aren't we? I could talk to the health visitor, though they haven't been great the few times I've spoken to them previously (not about sleep things, to be fair, but they gave some quite dodgy breastfeeding advice).

You could always start with comforted crying, where you put baby down but sit touching and comforting them constantly.

This is what I'm thinking of doing, I think - is this the same thing as gradual retreat?

He is in a golden period with teeth at the moment, since his bottom two both came in two weeks ago and there don't seem to be any more imminent, which might also be an argument for starting sooner rather than later. Weaning isn't going especially well but it's very early days. I'm more worried about his low intake of milk during the day - according to DH he's only had about 15oz all day (plus a breastfeed from me first thing, but he didn't drink well then, because I think he was still full up from the night!). The last thing I want to do is let him cry, even comforted, when he's not just wanting a comfort feed but actually hungry.

Lovely to hear from you foxtrot, though sorry that you're also struggling with sleep! Hope you and DS are otherwise well - I am still so mindful that DS is my little miracle and so grateful that he's here and safe, even when I'm propping my eyes up with matchsticks! This time last year I was sick with anxiety over my twelve week scan, which helps to put things in some sort of perspective!

I do sympathise, OP - I was in exactly the same situation when my DD was 6m (she’s now three and a half). I was demented from the sleep deprivation and co-sleeping just didn’t work. We got a sleep trainer in to stay with us for a few nights and she worked miracles. I know this isn’t affordable for everyone but it was absolutely worth every penny. She used a very gentle form of controlled crying which worked almost instantly, and DD has been a brilliant sleeper ever since, other than the usual illnesses and nightmares.

Please don’t listen to anyone who says that gentle sleep training is cruel. It is far more cruel, to everyone involved, to go for months or years without proper sleep. Your baby will not be damaged by being left to grizzle for a few minutes at a time. Nor will he ‘learn that you don’t come when he cries’ - my DD still very much lets us know when she needs us in the night!

Good luck and I do hope it improves soon. The torture of sleep deprivation is one of the reasons I don’t want another child!

Hi @LisaSimpsonsbff and @FoxtrotSkarloey I also remember you both from the mc thread..
My ds is a few months ahead of you he is almost 10 month but similar with sleep.. We started our own method of attempting to get more sleep over Christmas.. Pretty much for me I've tried to cut down the bf at night.. He was feeding every 90mins to 2 hours and it also meant he Edmund eating a huge amount of food during the day..
I struggle with the crying though too so I am trying to not fed any more than every 4 hours at night.. The first night ds screamed on and off for 1 hour and a half at the first wake up - he was either in our arms or eventually being pushed up and down in the pram.. Then he slept until 2 am which was a 6 hour gap between feeds.. Was too hard trying to do it during the middle of the night though so we decided we will cut down one feed at a time.. Fast forward 4 days and last night he went to sleep at 9 (I do feed to sleep) woke briefly at 11 I rocked him in my arms and put him back down convinced he would wake up but he stayed sleeping until 330 - fed at 330 although he did take any 45 mins to am hour and then slept to 745 this morning...
It's a very slow method but maybe it will work. I hope.
My ds just screams if I try and pat him when he's lying in the cot he just gets himself hysterical
Hopefully you get some more sleep soon 🙂

Argh, very reluctant to pay a sleep consultant - do people really think this is a necessity? I can see how the support would be helpful but we definitely can't afford someone who would be in the house overnight so we're still going to have to bite the bullet ourselves ultimately, aren't we?

For us it was a necessity. We used someone who worked remotely, so was cheaper than having the person in our house. But if that had been our only option yes it would still have been worth it.

For me my health, my work, and my marriage were suffering, the value on getting those back was quite high.

We got to this point when my DS was about 9 months - he was awake and wanting to feed (breastfed) every 45 mins during the night. Couldn't cosleep because he was too mobile at night which kept me awake and there was a risk of him crawling out of bed. Plus while I think cosleeping is fine if it works for you, it's a not a good idea if you are chronically sleep deprived (as you have already experienced).

I was working full time with a baby and a toddler, and ruining my mental and physical health through sleep deprivation. We did sleep training, it took one night, couldn't believe I hadn't done it earlier. The key was not feeding him at night. The first night I set a target of feeding him at 8pm then not again until after midnight. He woke at 9pm, cried off and on for a couple of hours (went to settle him regularly but didn't feed him) - and then went back to sleep and slept until about 5am!

Where a sleep consultant might help you is in how to sleep train as not all babies respond the same way. Gradual withdrawal or patting and shushing for eg doesn't work with all babies, neither of mine would sleep if there was someone in the room that they could interact with.

Thank you for all the advice on this post. We've hired a sleep consultant after a truly disastrous attempt to have DH take over the night wakings on Sunday night so that I could drive on Monday - I went to bed (with earplugs) at 8pm but he came to get me at 2am after DS had been awake and crying on and off since 10.30. I ended up cosleeping with DS, which I hated and lay there awake for hours thinking 'what if I roll on him' and then eventually fell asleep only to wake up in a massive panic again and end up in tears.

BUT I'm still having so many doubts and I feel so guilty - DS slept better last night, he woke up at 8.30, 10.30, 1, 4 and then 5.30 (and wouldn't go back to sleep after feeding so DH got up with him then) - that's his best night in quite a while (I woke up during that stretch between 1 and 4 in a panic and had to go check on him because he'd been quiet for so long!) and I think I've lost all perspective - is that ok for a 6 month old and I'm being unreasonable in my expectations? DH and I have argued about it this morning because I want to cancel the sleep trainer, but DH says I'm being ridiculous. Last night was easier because I did all the wake-ups (and fed every time) and so DS went down quite easily each time. I know that if I was still on mat leave I could live with that and so I feel so guilty for essentially deciding to make DS cry because he has a working mother

The person we've hired is famously gentle and recommends a gradual withdrawal method, but she said that while DS never needs to cry alone there's no way to get him to change his sleeping habits that doesn't involve any upset at all

Honestly do it it's the best money you'll ever spend. You MUST persevere though be fully consistent and both on board.

Please remember that babies need sleep just like we do and by teaching him to be able to self settle and therefore sleep better is for his benefit as well as yours. Please remember that.

After completing my sleep training with the sleep consultant my son was getting an extra 6 hours sleep in every 24 hours which is a HUGE difference and he was a far, far happier baby because he was so much more rested.

You aren’t selfish - better sleeping behaviours are better for your baby too.

Please remember that babies need sleep just like we do and by teaching him to be able to self settle and therefore sleep better is for his benefit as well as yours

This. Our DD2 who had problems getting to sleep at that age was tons happier after we sleep trained her. People sometimes assume that sleep training and routines and stuff are for easy sleepers only but our experience was that DD1, who was an easy sleeper, slept well however we did things - it was exactly the difficult one, DD2, who needed the structure.

I haven't read the whole thread im afraid but you have my full sympathy. I had similar experience to you and also hate co sleeping. My answer? I gave up breastfeeding and put DC in their own room at six months. It meant dp and I could take turns in going in to re settle, give a bottle etc. So alternate nights I could actually sleep through. And by age of one she more or less slept through the night. That was my strategy. Don't feel pressure to co sleep or breast feed if it isn't right for you.

Argh, have cancelled/delayed the appointment with the sleep trainer (who was really nice about it) and now regret it! I think I'm going to give it a week not because I think it'll improve in that time - it seems to be getting steadily worse most nights - but because I need to get a bit more desperate to overcome the guilt, I think. DH barely talking to me he's so cross (he says I'm going to die on the motorway if I keep driving like this 'and do you think that it'll be tear-free for DS if his mum is dead?' - helpful!), but if I can't face it now how will I be able to at 3am? I fully foresee a scenario where I let DS cry (with me there in room with hand on him - we've tried settling him in his cot before and it is NOT easy and I know that gradual retreat isn't going to be tearfree for us) and then give in, and that really is just cruel, so I need to be more certain. Keep reading Sarah Ockwell-Smith articles about how it will KILL HIS BRAIN, just to make myself feel extra bad, along with a million posts on forums from people saying (to people in my situation) 'can't you just be less of a selfish cow and cosleep?'.