Sexist Traditions - WWYD?

[Coldtoes28]

Hubby and I both have heritage from another country - DH more so then I, he is actually a citizen of the other country, whereas I only have 1/8 background from this country. DHs family still live in the country, mine have lived in the UK for years.

In this country tradition is very important and as with many traditions a lot of them are very sexist and morally questionable. DH is less bothered by them as they are more normal to him (as in, he doesn't care about them, but doesn't think very much about them) whereas as a woman I find some of them pretty offensive. Can't give too much away without giving away the country and potentially outing myself but a lot of women serving men/being second class citizens next to men in a very visible and demeaning way, menstruating women seen as dirty and banned from certain areas/events, treatment of anyone older than you goes beyond respectful and into pretty degrading and can be humiliating, homophobia common , etc.

DH, like I said, doesn't care about tradition or follow any. I am of the belief that most traditions are oppressive at best, but also offensive and totally opposed to many values that we want to teach our children like equality and tolerance and respect.

We are due our annual visit to home country soon and I just wanted to gage other people's opinions on what is reasonable re putting my foot down when it comes to traditions. I want my children to celebrate and learn about their culture but I don't want them to think that certain things are ok. Last time we went there was an event which I was expected to wait outside because I was menstruating and I didn't want to go because I thought it was teaching my children a very negative lesson about women and women's bodies and natural processes being dirty and shameful. I understand that they should learn about their culture but I think we should TELL them about certain things and explain why nowadays we know that this is wrong because men and women are equal etc, but DHs family will be upset if they don't participate. If they participate then I'm worried it will teach them confusing lessons and I don't want them growing up seeing the women in their family controlled and degraded and treated as servants for men or like they are dirty/ less important than men.

It's very touchy because although DH feels the same way as I do (although less strongly, he just thinks traditions are stupid) he would be inclined to go along with anything to keep his family happy, whereas I am feeling more like not allowing them to participate in the more horrible, for want of a better word, traditions. I get on very well with DHs family and love them very much so don't want to cause offence. Was just wondering what you would do in this situation? Allow the children to participate in events which directly contradict your morals and the lessons you want to teach them, or politely decline and explain why?

If I am being unreasonable then please tell me as I genuinely am unsure and really could use the advice!

Thank you

I would do exactly what you are planning to do. From the above story, I can make a calcuated guess that you are from Asian background although I could be wrong. My SIL is an Indian and a very pretty, decent and educated lady form a good cultural background. She also told me about such prevailing practises in Indian subcontinent. I wouldnt expose my children to such malractises in the name of culture.

They are your children! Upsetting other people shouldn't trump the way you want to raise them.

I have a similar issue with relatives and I try to minimise contact as I don't want them being exposed to racism, sexism and foul language. If we are around them I don't give them the response/reaction they are angling for. In other words I ignore and distract.

You could either not go or go and just do your own thing.

To me standing outside because you have your period is awful, being a tradition doesn't make it okay in my books and there is no way I would allow my children to be directly exposed to it.
If they ask why women are standing outside you could explain the reason but say we don't go along with it because you don't share the same beliefs.

Just be honest to them and true to yourself, or you will kick yourself.

Sorry, rambling. Just my thoughts.

Tradition and family don’t trump blatant discrimination. Even if you personally are able to participate on this visit, I would not let your children participate because some women are being excluded.

Thank you so much for the replies - I'm glad I'm not BU as I feel very strongly about this and would have felt ready uncomfortable to just go through with it anyway. I know this trip that the men in my family will want to take my DS to a place that literally all women are banned from (periods or not) and I just really don't feel comfortable with this - I think it's really awful and feel like sexism and discrimination is unacceptable for any reason. I agree that equality is far more important than tradition. I know the women in DHs family dont think this is fair either but it wouldn't occur to them to put their foot down so maybe if I do then it might encourage some of them to start standing up for themselves too

I don't understand how saying the country can be outing. Does he come from Tristan da Cunha or something with like 30 people?

You must have thought about all this or discussed it with your husband before marrying him?? I wouldn't DREAM of marrying a man from such a culture much less have children with him unless he was very aware that such bollocks would be rejected by me.

Re the period thing. How did they know you were menstruating??

I would explain that your children are British and they have to function in British society and that conflicts with some practices / traditions so yo will allow your children to take part in some but not others.

But get your dh on side first.

A school friend's mother had to do this, her NI RC granny had been telling her to pray for helicopters full of British soldiers to crash.

OK that wasn't sexist or much of a tradition but it was something she found unacceptable.

You didn't discuss this before marriage and children?

My daughters husband comes from a traditional normatic culture. If you refuse to participate in traditions you don't get to claim to be part of the culture. Dd knew this years in advance of having children and her husband wouldn't have married her had she not have been in agreement.

No, your husband doesn’t mind too much because he’s of the sex with the freedom to do as he pleases.

It’s absolutely no help to you but I would also not be involved with a man who wasn’t as vociferously anti the inequality as me.

As you are I’d take the line sashh said - your children are British and they need to function here - that means these traditions are to be ignored and your son doesn’t get preferential treatment just because he’s male.

Are your children old enough for you to have these discussions with them directly? so that you can explain to them that these are things that are traditional in this country and culture but they are unacceptable in the UK, their homeplace, because women are not oppressed to the same degree in the UK any longer?

I disagree that they would no longer be part of that culture if they didn't accept its traditions and beliefs - the next generations should be the ones to change the cultural beliefs and traditions to ones that are more appropriate to the 21stC, surely? Why mire them in outdated misogynistic practices?

If your children are not old enough to have the discussion with, then I'd keep them away from the situations - don't let it get into their psyche that anything about misogyny is acceptable or "normal".

Many British people uphold traditions from other cultures. Just saying.

The problem is, these cultural beliefs go deep if you've been exposed to them with no caveats since the year dot. I'd be very wary iiwy because your husband will have imbibed these beliefs that are so abhorrent to you. Thinking they are rubbish or boring is not the same as recognising they are offensive.

I'm also wondering how they knew you were menstruating! Get a mooncup in future so no-one is any the wiser?

I think you can explain to kids that certain things are offensive to our contemporary beliefs. imo kids can differentiate if it's spelt out to them. Eg when I read my kids Enid Blyton I made quite a song and dance about how archaic (sexist) a lot of it was but it didn't stop me reading it to them and all of us enjoying it.

Missing the point but also wondering how they knew you were having your period? Also why the country would be outing?

Think ynbu. It's great to explain other cultures to your dc and how not all traditions are a good thing.

In fact it can highlight how lucky and free we are and not to take it for granted.

No, your husband doesn’t mind too much because he’s of the sex with the freedom to do as he pleases.

You've hit the nail right on the head there.

I think you have to tell them that although you love your relatives, they are from a different era/culture and you can love them without believing as they do. I would tell them that you believe that aspects of the culture are wrong but they can take an interest in observing them. Consider it an historical and cultural experience.

I wouldn't let them physically participate in anything degrading, although if you were talking about serving tea/food to the male family members for example. I would let that with an explanation beforehand of how unfair it is.

To be honest I would consider the whole thing as an innoculation.

As others have said your husband is not too bothered as he is a man. Also be prepared for him to behave differently in his home country.

I am assuming husband knew op was menustrating

You must have thought about all this or discussed it with your husband before marrying him?? I wouldn't DREAM of marrying a man from such a culture much less have children with him unless he was very aware that such bollocks would be rejected by me

Exactly. I'd have no respect for a man who followed the beliefs of such a backwards way of life, let alone date or marry them.

But, seeing as it's too late for that discussion/decision, there's no way in hell I'd be allowing my children would be stepping foot in such a place. They'd be told/taught that decent people don't partake/follow/believe in such backward and discriminatory practices - and if it upset the followers in the family to learn that, then all the better.

I've been travelling to Indian subcintinent where some of the practices are sexist...however...when in Rome do as the Roman's do.
Britain is a very liberal culture and many of our practices are not acceptable elsewhere. For example...in Nepal i covered up, especially in a temple, i shook hands with the left, didn't sit with feet outstretched and was generally respectful.

In Saudi i would probably cover up. It's an ideal opportunity to teach your dc about different cultures whilst also mentioning how lucky we are in tbe uk not to have such outdated traditions. Let them know that women should be treated better but there are many ttaditions elsewhere. Awareness is good.

And ps...don't let on that you are menstruating ( did your dh mention it?)

I don't think serving tea to the men is the end of the world or humiliating...being made to sit at their feet and massage their feet whilst eating the scraps ...more so!

Also why not do some female bonding...while the men go off, talk to the women about how they feel.

Maybe have a discussion with your DH and then your in laws about what you want your kids to participate in?

You can say that in British society and culture some things that people do in your DH’s culture would cause lots of problems (even legal action). You don’t want your kids to be confused/told off at school - it may harm their success. BUT you do appreciate their hospitality/kindness and want your kids to have a good relationship with grandparents.

Agree you and your dh need to be on the same page. Causing ructions by making a stand about things you have done on previous visits seems a bit off to me. As your children spend the majority of time here then I doubt they'll be brain washed.

How did they know you were menstruating and could therefore not visit the event? Did you both talk about the clash of cultures before marriage? Is your marriage an arranged marriage?

Your DH still follows the traditions but is less concerned because he is male and therefore not oppressed. If he grew up in his home country tradition will be more ingrained and it may be a battle for him to accept our western culture.

I see this often with British Asian women that I know and work with, who have lived in the UK all of their life and have married a man from their home country. (I'm not generalising I know this is not all British Asian women's experience)

I would not allow my children to take part in any events or witness any situation where women were belittled. I would expect my DH to tell his family that HIS children were not participating.

However in my experience the family, tradition and culture comes before the wife and for some women it is a daily battle. The wife is continually coerced and bound by cultural expectations.

With reference to menstruating your children don't need to travel abroad to see that a women is not allowed to read the Quran or fast while menstruating as she is impure. Some traditions are accepted in the UK.

I realise this may not help your dilemma but I think that your battle begins at home with your DH and how much he is prepared to depart from tradition and support you.

I am assuming husband knew op was menustrating

If this was the case, op's issues are far bigger than serving tea to men. Her dh would have made her stand outside or told someone else she was menstruating so she stood outside.

This is their father's heritage and partly theirs. I would let them attend and experience that heritage/religious practice. I would not tell them I agreed with it and I would use it to open a wide ranging discussion about different heritages, different religions, and different legislations. This needs to be addressed intellectually.

My children attended a cofe primary school. They went on visits to the local synogogue, sikh temple, buddhist temple and mosque. Many of the Muslim children were not allowed to attend the cofe church even for the end of term service. Which approach do you think fosters ignorance?

My children went to church when they were younger. Both are atheists. Their decision is to be respected because they have thought through their beliefs and experienced a christian upbringing and also have learnt about other faiths. They have made an intellectual decision and one that I can respect.

Do you respect the Englishman who doesn't like Chinese food because it's different and he hasn't tried it? I wouldn't have thought so and neither do I.

How would they even know if you were menstruating?