Sexist Traditions - WWYD?

[Coldtoes28]

Hubby and I both have heritage from another country - DH more so then I, he is actually a citizen of the other country, whereas I only have 1/8 background from this country. DHs family still live in the country, mine have lived in the UK for years.

In this country tradition is very important and as with many traditions a lot of them are very sexist and morally questionable. DH is less bothered by them as they are more normal to him (as in, he doesn't care about them, but doesn't think very much about them) whereas as a woman I find some of them pretty offensive. Can't give too much away without giving away the country and potentially outing myself but a lot of women serving men/being second class citizens next to men in a very visible and demeaning way, menstruating women seen as dirty and banned from certain areas/events, treatment of anyone older than you goes beyond respectful and into pretty degrading and can be humiliating, homophobia common , etc.

DH, like I said, doesn't care about tradition or follow any. I am of the belief that most traditions are oppressive at best, but also offensive and totally opposed to many values that we want to teach our children like equality and tolerance and respect.

We are due our annual visit to home country soon and I just wanted to gage other people's opinions on what is reasonable re putting my foot down when it comes to traditions. I want my children to celebrate and learn about their culture but I don't want them to think that certain things are ok. Last time we went there was an event which I was expected to wait outside because I was menstruating and I didn't want to go because I thought it was teaching my children a very negative lesson about women and women's bodies and natural processes being dirty and shameful. I understand that they should learn about their culture but I think we should TELL them about certain things and explain why nowadays we know that this is wrong because men and women are equal etc, but DHs family will be upset if they don't participate. If they participate then I'm worried it will teach them confusing lessons and I don't want them growing up seeing the women in their family controlled and degraded and treated as servants for men or like they are dirty/ less important than men.

It's very touchy because although DH feels the same way as I do (although less strongly, he just thinks traditions are stupid) he would be inclined to go along with anything to keep his family happy, whereas I am feeling more like not allowing them to participate in the more horrible, for want of a better word, traditions. I get on very well with DHs family and love them very much so don't want to cause offence. Was just wondering what you would do in this situation? Allow the children to participate in events which directly contradict your morals and the lessons you want to teach them, or politely decline and explain why?

If I am being unreasonable then please tell me as I genuinely am unsure and really could use the advice!

Thank you

I’ve heard of the menstruatingbthing and always wondered how they know?! Do they just rely on you to do the right thing?

I would do what pp said about your children being British and having to function in British society etc.

OP, I would also feel very strongly about this in your position.

As others have said, it depends exactly on the practices you are talking about, and perhaps you'd be ok with some of them, but if any of them make you feel really uncomfortable then you absolutely need to not allow your DC to take part and make sure that DH is on board with this, even if it hurts some feelings.

The period thing I honestly don't know what I'd do

Everyone asking how it was known that the OP was menstruating, are you suggesting she should have hidden the fact and entered the holy place any way???

That’s not what you do if you disagree with a religious practise. If you disagree you don’t go, speak out etc, you don’t lie and undermine the beliefs of others. That is hugely culturally i sensitive and yet doesn’t serve to challenge the beliefs, it just pointlessly and quietly disrespects them.

OP I would talk to your children and explain your concerns about the cultural practices. Have them think about what the practices mean for women and then let them choose whether to participate. If they choose to go with grandparents etc anyway then at least they will have awareness of the sexism that is happening around them and you can talk about it again afterwards. Better to get them to think for themselves than shield them from the realities of part of their heritage.

It's their country and their rules and traditions. Without detriment to the kids safety you would be much better telling your kids what life is like in India or wherever you are vs England. It would be a good cultural lesson.

I think you are doing it right.
Celebrate the beauty in the culture but don’t honour the parts you don’t agree with. You can explain them to your children but then follow it through with why you don’t choose to follow these cultural aspects.

It may cause a rift between yourself and the family, but the visit is only annual and your children witnessing you remaining strong and honouring your own beliefs is more important.
Could you ‘inadvertently’ have sight seeing things planned on the days when you and the children might be subjected to the sexism that you don’t want to be a part of? I would also avoid getting into any kind of debate with family members about why you won’t be attending, etc. You won’t come out of it well, being the minority.
I hope that your husband also agrees to treat you as an equal when you are there, as much as he does when you are at home.

OP, my parents are Asian

they have had a number of things over the years that I find abhorrent and sexist. I don't participate and now they have learned what to avoid as well! Just say you're not up for it and explain why.

if your DH won't back you up, that's a separate problem.

How would anyone know that you were menstruating ?

PS In defence of my folks I should add, they never expected women to hide away because they were on their period!

Another one wondering how they knew you were on your period?

Well I would lie about menstruating and just say you're not. No one's business but yours.
Tell your children: this is the tradition. They believe X because... I believe Y because... but let's join in this once so you can experience it. Then discuss it later.

Generally I think 'When in Rome' - respect local cultures unless they are repulsively oppressive.

Bit worrying that it doesn't bother your DH because it doesn't demean him so much!

Are you from Jamaica?
a lot of these nonsensical rules sound similar to Rastafarianism.

No I would not be part of it.
Would you tell a black person to stand so a white person could sit down? Well that was tradition in the US.
All sexist/racist traditions continue until someone has the guts to challenge them.
I would speak to your dc and explain about menstruation etc. Tell them that that is how we reproduce and without it human life would not continue.
Make sure you explain that there is no mystical element to menstruation. It's not pleasant for the vast majority of females and your sons need to made thankful that they don't have to endure it.

are you suggesting she should have hidden the fact and entered the holy place any way???

Yes it disrespects the belief, but, in this case, so what? The more people that do so the sooner this tradition dies. Just because something is a valuable tradition to millions of people doesn't mean outsiders who disapprove shouldn't undermine it when they can.

If there is any danger of consequences if detected would obviously be a good reason for "why not."

I totally agree with you, OP. I would find it really difficult too and I think it would stop me visiting.

How old are the kids? What sex are they? Could they go with your DH by themselves? That way they get to participate, but will also be aware that mummy doesn't want to join in.

Alternatively, suggest your DH joins in your half the rituals. So if you have to stand outside and wait while everyone else goes in, so does he, etc.

(And could ppl stop going on about the menstruation thing - maybe the female relatives spotted a used pad in a bin?)

Remember that you and your kids are British first so even if you show them a different culture it needs to be clear that while they may have heritage there, it's not their culture.

Hi all! Thanks for all the replies. It's been really interesting and helpful to read!

Firstly I just want to apologise as I think I might not have been clear in my OP re my DH. When i said he doesn't care, I mean that he doesn't care if we miss the traditions. Although he is from a different culture which can be very sexist, he himself is nothing like this. He too feels strongly about equality and teaching our children these important lessons. Part of the reason he left India is because he was very uncomfortable with some of the these traditions which don't fit well with his own personal morals. (And yes, he is/we are from India! Sorry I didn't say in my OP. I was being a bit paranoid as I'd recommended MN to SIL but to be honest this is something I'm planning to discuss with them now anyway after reading your replies so I'll stop being such a coward!)

However, he is also a very chilled out person and nowhere near as fiesty as me when it comes to these things! Like a couple of you have pointed out,this is probably because he is a male and also because he has grown up in a culture where sexism is so common. In every day life he wouldn't tolerate sexist behaviour of any kind and is totally opposed to any kind of discrimination. He personally refuses to participate in any of the traditions. BUT, on the other hand, if I was fine with the kids being taken along to some of the traditions then he probably would just let it go as in his opinion these things aren't really 'real life', he sees them as a sort of history lesson or something. A way of appreciating the past and his ancestors by doing what they did. Do you know what I mean? So while he doesn't appreciate them, he would probably allow his parents/grandparents to take the kids along because he would be able to brush it off as just his family teaching the kids about their heritage.

As for why we didn't discuss it before marriage - I don't really know how to answer that! I guess we just didn't consider every scenario. It's not that huge of a deal between us, so I guess that's why? It's more to do with me not wanting to cause any upset within his wider family.

As for the menstruating issue, you could lie. The reason they found out with me is that I remember hearing that this one particular place we were going didn't allow women on their periods and it suddenly occured to me as we were about to leave so I asked about it. Of course you could lie (DH wouldn't have cared) but like a PP said, it didn't seem right to me to lie - it was a religious festival and I don't know, I suppose the superstitious side of me felt uncomfortable lying. I don't follow DHs family religion (neither does he) but I suppose it would have felt very disrespectful to lie. I spoke to other women about it though and it seems like lying is pretty uncommon. People live with their extended family (women move to their husbands family home when they get married and raise their children there). An (unmarried) friend of mine said that she can't lie as living so closely with all her family means that they pretty much know roughly when she will and won't be able to go to these things now. (I know this sounds a bit weird but she lives with her sisters, SIL, mum and grandmother as well as father and brother so I guess these things just come up in conversation or her cycle syncs up with the other women?)

It is a different culture and one which has many beautiful sides, but I feel really confident now that I'm not being ignorant or intolerant by removing my children from the side which I would consider to be more hateful/oppressive/unacceptable.

I think I will just go down the route of allowing my children to participate in the harmless and pleasant traditions but anything which I feel teaches my daughter that she is less important than my son, or that there is anything shameful about the female body can be ignored. The children are too young to explain this in too much detail now, but I think that starting young with brief explanations will be a good way to ease them into learning about their culture but also not participating in the parts which are unfair.

Thank you so much, your replies have been so helpful and I feel really confident and happy with this decision now!

If you dont want to make a stand, youll be expecting your children to make a stand later

Bravo 28!

I think your solution sounds very sensible.

Good for you OP! You’re a brave and principled woman and your children are lucky to have you as their mother. Stay strong.

OP

You sound like a fantastic person. Follow your conscience, keep it up and we will all have a better world to live in.

Do you have daughter (s) or just sons?
If you have a DD, what happens when the family want to arrange her marriage (or do their traditions include fgm?) Then what?
You need to think about this now, are the children British or Indian in terms of how you want them to grow up - or rather are they traditional or not iyswim.
How do you explain that when you visit the family abroad mummy is suddenly inferior, unclean, and her ordinary lifestyle and behaviour is unacceptable... likewise, if you have a daughter.

Oh lordy, ignore me OP. I managed to completely miss half your last post and am talking shite. Sorry.
I'll just sidle away....