Abortion limits lowered part 2

[CosmicCanary]

I messed up the last one.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3458517-To-think-late-term-abortion-rules-may-need-tightening-up

The limits should not be lowered in my view.
I am pro choice to the point where it is the womans choice as long as her body is required.

but do not kill it just because it's an inconvenience to your life

If I got pregnant it would be a disaster. It would impact massively on my existing child - she has rights. I wouldn’t even think twice about ending a pregnancy - as early as I possibly could, as late as necessary.

Ah I see that angle Jaques. But again I dispute the use of the word forced. That word implies something being done to the woman against her will, on purpose.

Pregnancy is a natural by product of sex. When it happens, if she is past the legal point for termination, the only thing forcing pregnancy upon her is the foetus itself.

Refusal to intervene isn't the same as "forcing" her to continue to term, even if that is the logical outcome.

It is purely the word "force" I have an objection to. It seems to diminish the term for when it should be used.....when a woman is being raped or beind denied contraception by her partner and being prevented from leaving the house to seek.a termination. Then the partner is a "forced birther", not those who.disagree with termination for non-medical reasons past the legal limits.

You can take a theoretical pro-choice position to its logical conclusion, abortion until birth by choice. You could even go one step further and be pro-infanticide. The neonate is totally dependent upon its mother and it is hard to get rid of a baby at short notice.

You could also, at an equally ridiculous level ban all abortion for babies conceived from consensenual sex as, after all, pregnancy is always a risk from sex and why should society pay the cost of abortions.

The reality is that reduction ad absurdum arguments rarely produce good decisions on nuanced and ethical issues.

So society makes messy compromises for difficult situations, in our case abortion to 24 weeks. The vast majority of the populace favour this limit or slightly lower, with the extremes on both sides.

There is very little movement of public opinion (even just including females) on this issue so it becomes a sterile discussion rehashed every few months on MN (and I am sure on similar sites).

Define ‘necessary’.

larrygrylls absolutely and brilliantly put.

They're either pro life nutters trying to make pro choice people look evil or they're mras advocating for more time to pressure women into aborting children they don't want to pay for.

I wondered that too, particularly given that many of the posters can seem to conceive any person other than a misogynistic women-hating nutcase could possibly have any other view.... or maybe they just live entirely in their rad-fem echo chambers.

Go bollocks.

Believing women have a choice over their own body does not make us MRA nutters.

Women have and continue to be slaves to due to our reproductive capacity.
The last Magdalene laundry only closed in 1996. Not that bloody long ago!

Pro choice is trusting women to make the right choice for them.
The vast majority of women could not terminate at 37 weeks. I trust women.

The legal cut off in the UK is 24 weeks yet there are a very small number of women that have chosen non legal termination despite that law. Those women were always going to commit that act legally or not.

Womens bodies are not public property.

or maybe theyjust live entirely in their rad-fem echo Chambers. ----

I don't believe they're rad fens. Rad fems tend to be more clued up about how women's bodies actually work.

The fundies on here don't seem to understand that at a certain point a foetuses bones harden and you can't just remove them via suction anymore. It's either vaginal delivery or cesarean.

I'd say lib fems, with the mantras, dogma and tumblr debating style. Or mras.

It is hard to tell the difference though.

@HarperIsBazaar that is sick.

My opinion is that if you don't want a baby you should take measures to not have a baby. We have reproductive organs so we must take responsibility for it. It's cruel that some babies are growing and then there life is cut short and that they don't have any rights inside the womb. Apart from exceptional circumstances, the cut off should be 8 weeks maximum. We live in a country where contraception is free-there is no excuse

Indeed we do. And yet not one form of contraception is 100% effective.

With my first pregnancy, despite being actively TTC I didn’t know until 8 weeks. Had two totally periods whilst pregnant.

I have had one pregnancy scare in my life. All contraception used absolutely properly. It happens.

Totally normal that should say

Fuck off Night

We are not stupid. We know how it works.

fundies stop being pathetic.

I had an abortion at 19 weeks. I should have had it at 14 weeks but the 2 Doctors required were busy.
I was put in a side room on a labour ward believe it or not.
The nurse that delivered my dead baby was 7 months pregnant. I was 16 yo.
I asked her if it was bad that she had to see to me and bless her she said no.
Her stance was her baby was wanted mine was not.
I chose to see what I had aborted and he was the size of a tin of beans and perfectly formed if not "see through". I do not regret my decision. Even after 4 DC including twins born early.
Pro choice is just that.
Pro life is very simple too.
Maybe pro law is better for some.

Cheers.

The rape was much more horrific if I am being honest.

Jesus.. 19 weeks? That's horrific

Yeah, rape of a 16 year old doesn’t register huh?

Sickening.

Cosmic

Jac

I am used to it.

My mum although "there for me" when she eventually found out still judges me 25 years later. She is pro life.

I had an nhs 12 week abortion a few years later. D and C I believe its called.
I went in to a wsiting room with women and girls all sitting around knowing why we were there.
I was unconcious for it as I requested to be. I woke up on some side ward next to a bloke who had a knee injury from a rugby match and on the other side was a child with a high temp!
I was treated like nothing but cattle for making a legal choice.
Women are second class. My experiences have shaped my pro choice view. Women should always have choice over their body.

Sh*t a brick, cosmic. Getting pregnant from a rape is horrific. I'm so sorry for what you went through.

This thread has really made me think. I had a termination at 5 or 6 weeks and I've never got over it. I will hate myself forever for it but I support other women's right to have an abortion.

That said, I genuinely believe the limit should be 12 weeks UNLESS for medical or extreme psychological reasons (such as rape). But I seem to be in the minority.

@Stepaway I don't think you're the minority. In fact I think MN users are minority actually.
That's why most of Europe also has 10-14 weeks as the cut off.

Also @Cosmic I'm truly sorry about what happened to you. For the rape as a teenager and for the treatment after the 2nd abortion.

Even if I think the first is horrific as I said, I believe you were very young (and obviously not at all your fault) and that laws shouldn't have been in place for it to happen that late. Going from 14 to 19 weeks is just unacceptable, fucking hell. Why is your health care system so terrible.

When I found out my baby had died inside of me I literally had the surgery to get it removed the following day.

Cosmic

CosmicCanary, I am so sorry about your rape and that you had to go through all that. I am glad your nurse was lovely to you

MamaDame how DARE you say that Cosmic's abortion was sick! She was 16 and was raped FFS. She did nothing wrong at all, simply made the best choice for herself and the foetus at the time. Cosmic acted completely within the law.

Your lack of compassion towards a young girl in an awful situation is terrible

Why is your health care system so terrible

It isn’t. It allows women the chance to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy until 24 weeks. That’s pretty fucking amazing actually.

MamaDame I have now seen your update so apologies. What Cosmic did still wasn't sick though.

*cosmicanary

Not sure what the "fuck off" was for.

I haven't said I'm opposed to abortion. Fwiw, I've had a termination ar 17 weeks for Edwards syndrome, so yes, I do know about having to birth a dead foetus in a side room.

I don't oppose abortion at all. Up to a point. I just don't agree with deliberately killing a healthy foetus that can survive independently outside the uterus without excessive medical interventions.

I would possibly support abortion up to 32 weeks but there needs to be a cut off point and part way down the birth canal isn't it.