Abortion limits lowered part 2

[CosmicCanary]

I messed up the last one.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3458517-To-think-late-term-abortion-rules-may-need-tightening-up

The limits should not be lowered in my view.
I am pro choice to the point where it is the womans choice as long as her body is required.

My daughter was born breathing independently, fully viable and ready to go home at 37 weeks. I cannot agree that it would be right to terminate at that stage on grounds of bodily autonomy

You can’t compare a wanted pregnancy with a non-wanted one though.

We mustn't forget that for every women exercising her legal rights there are people who must be found to perform these procedures

That sounds so awful, and you are right, the doctors/nurses are usually an afterthought in this discussion.

I do wish we could hear from more from those in the medical profession. I’ve always respected those who perform late-term abortions, as I know it must be difficult emotionally, even though it can save lives and most of the fetuses have severe medical complications. I just always hear about this issue from the patient POV. Thanks for sharing your experience

You can’t compare a wanted pregnancy with a non-wanted one though.

Whether wanted or not, the baby would still be viable.

I think that advocating termination to term for any or no reason plays into the hands of prolifers as most ordinary people would be horrified at the thought of aborting a healthy foetus at 39/40 weeks.

Forced birthers repulse me. Free, safe, accessible abortion on demand should be a basic women's right. As late as necessary, as early as possible.

I thought the first thread was too balanced towards public opinion and was surprised at the lack of pro abortion at any time for any reason as is usually the way it goes on mn but ta da, here it is. Thank goodness 94% of people find any time any reason abhorrent. Long may that last.

It's not about what you personally find abhorrent, though. If you don't like the idea of a late term abortion, you don't have to have one.

It's also about teenage girls with unreliable periods finding out they are pregnant at 20 weeks and not being able to arrange an abortion in time.

It's about a woman who has become homeless who feels she cannot adequately care for her existing children while carrying on with her pregnancy.

It's about a woman who has fled an abusive relationship and is just starting to get her life back together and has found out she is 23 weeks pregnant. She had the implant. She doesn't get periods.

I don't say "as early as possible, as late as necessary" because I think having a late term abortion for shits and giggles is fine. I say it because I think the alternative is worse, and why does the woman who presents at 23+5 not deserve the same options as the woman who presents at 10 weeks or 16 weeks?

It's a very small proportion of women who have abortions at 20+ weeks (I think about 1.4%) but it has remained steady, while the number of 14-20 week abortions has fallen. This suggests there are reasons around this we haven't or can't address.

And I will dispute that carry a child to term in itself is not harmful. A teenager may be bullied at school for giving her baby up. An older woman may not be able to find a job if she is visibly pregnant. A woman who gives her child up may be ostracized by her relatives or harassed by her partner's family. I think it's easier to keep an abortion a secret in the second trimester, because people won't usually be sure. With adoption, there is no hiding it.

And you are bringing an unwanted child into this world. Adoption, in and of itself, is harmful to children as well- it shouldn't be presented as the easy option for everyone.

This is a regular thread here with the same tired arguments trotted out.

I think the law as it stands is fine. Some want it lowered, some want it raised. It is a compromise between the rights of the pregnant woman and the right of the foetus to live (yes, most people believe they have a right at some point in pregnancy).

The idea of abortion on demand until term is, by definition, an extreme position. A tiny tiny fraction of the population would advocate for it, with more women against it than men. It is the other extreme to the anti abortion lobby who believe an embryo is sacrosanct from conception.

Fortunately law makers have made sensible compromise here which concurs with what the vast majority believe to be right.

. I say it because I think the alternative is worse, and why does the woman who presents at 23+5 not deserve the same options as the woman who presents at 10 weeks or 16 weeks?

Where is the cut off though, because surely if you take this point of view then a young girl who had no idea she was pregnant until she’s giving birth on the bathroom floor deserves the same options?

No one in their right mind would kill a newborn baby because it resulted from an unwanted pregnancy surely?

My daughter was born breathing independently, fully viable and ready to go home at 37 weeks. I cannot agree that it would be right to terminate at that stage on grounds of bodily autonomy

Thing is that demanding a woman endure possibly another 5 weeks of pregnancy is problematic as it is co-opting her body but I see that by then it is basically a fully formed independent life that is inside her. Is fucking tough.

Genuine thought - if the woman wants the baby out then that is respected but that a live baby is delivered, rather than terminating the life of the baby? (Because by then, it is a baby).

Grubby, apparently that’s not acceptable for some on here. It has to be abortion right up to delivery

“If you don't like the idea of a late term abortion, you don't have to have one. ”

This is a silly argument. We don’t just turn a blind eye to other ethical issues. If people think something is wrong, they are going to feel strongly about it and want it to stop - not just by avoiding it themselves but by trying to end it across the board. Fox hunting/battery farming/child cruelty/domestic abuse - we could just say oh, those things don’t apply to me/I won’t do them but we don’t.

It's not about what you personally find abhorrent, though. If you don't like the idea of a late term abortion, you don't have to have one.

I think parents should be able to beat their children. Have a problem with that? Well, if you don’t like the idea of beating your children, no one’s forcing you to do it! Just let those who want to exercise that choice do so!

Obviously I don’t think parents should beat their children, but this stupid line of argument gets parroted ad nauseum on every ‘abortion’ thread.

I'm another parent of a prem baby who can't contemplate late term abortion on demand.

I support the mantra of "as early as possible, as late as necessary" in principle, and don't believe that there would ever be many pregnant women who would chose to abort on something of a whim during their last trimester. And I've read case studies of women and girls who find themselves just the other side of the 24 week limit in tragic circumstances, and my heart breaks for them.

But I've also delivered a baby at 35 weeks who was healthy and independently viable (bar the usual new born stuff, obviously). The thought that I should have been able to say the day before I delivered him that I had changed my mind and wanted to access an abortion...well, it's abhorrent to me.

I'm also an adoptive parent, and agree it isn't some easy option - but it's got to be a better solution than allowing women to abort a healthy foetus at any time up to the point of delivery

‘As early as possible, as late as necessary’ is another one that gets parroted.

Define ‘necessary’. Necessary for a woman to have bodily autonomy? Well at a certain point, killing the foetus isn’t ‘necessary’ if the woman wants to choose to no longer be pregnant.

There is. The law states before 24 weeks.
Then her body as far as the law is concerned is not her own.
It is her own, she can do whatever she wants to it, but the law would not be willing to perform a termination.
I don't think it should depend on whether it COULD survive, but upon whether there is beyond reasonable chance that it would survive and not have any lasting effects which would serverely restrict it's quality of life, as is very possible with many premature baby.
If there is a risk to the mother's life, then that should, of course, take precedence over the fetus. In that case, it should be done as soon as possible but there shouldn't be restrictions put upon when it can be done. If somebody has been physically prevented from having an abortion, due to domestic abuse then there should be concessions made, dependent upon the situation.

YetAnotherSpartacus

Your position on this is the very epitome of a fundamentalist extremism expressed on this thread.

1. There’s only black and white...
   More than that, anyone who’s not 100% in agreement as is regarded as abhorrent! That’s the hallmark of fundamentalist religious groups

2. it’s ultimately so extreme as to be self-immolating. You claim to hate so-called ‘force-birthers’ but don’t recognise that someone who has abortion at or near term would ordinarily have to go through labour and give birth to a dying or dead baby!

I don't know why people keep commenting about terminations past 24 weeks as the law states no terminations past 24 weeks unless there is a disability.
Those of you that have never had to make that decision or to have heard those words that your child has something wrong with them during your pregnancy will never understand those of us who have made the heartbreaking decision to terminate the pregnancy and deliver your baby past 24 weeks.
As for the lady who made the decision to terminate her pregnancy at 38 I'm sure it wasn't an easy choice but hey come on here and slate her for her choice because you would never have made that choice.
I hope she hasn't read what you feel about it because let's be honest if you had to redo the injection into the baby twice it's quite identifying

I'm pro choice. Up to full term, on demand, for any reason

Samw, as are 99% of my friends. Apart from one pro-lifer acquaintance

I don't know why people keep commenting about terminations past 24 weeks as the law states no terminations past 24 weeks unless there is a disability.

Because that’s what many posters on these threads we arguing for. Any time for any reason.

Im pro choice then any time for any reason as long as women know what happens during a late term termination.
When i had a Tfmr i asked my Geneticist what was going to happen she was honest and said it will be awful and she was right.

What is actually the law? is it only disabled babies after 24 weeks can be terminated. I remember I had another friend back in the early1990s she was 17 she was definitely past six months and very much showing. I know she had to go through the whole delivery of the baby and I heard the nurses were very kind to her. I do believe she was suffering from depression of some kind at the time, would I be right in thinking she would have got a later one due to her age and mental health?

I think the world is going irrationally crazy.
What even a crazy thought.
What’s the next movement? Killing babies that are actually already born because it’s your right/life/choice?

@PineapplePower your post is a load of crap .
As I and also someone else said on the other thread , late term abortion isn't necessarily giving birth .
I've accompanied someone having an abortion at 22 weeks . She had to travel to London from Leeds to a bpas clinic that would perform a late one but she didn't give birth .
On the first day she was put under general anaesthetic and given an injection through her abdomen to stop the fetal heart , her cervix had dilators inserted . On the second day she had another general anaesthetic and a d&c was performed . When she came round she had to have a glass of water and a jam sandwich and was gone within two hours of the procedure happening .

If you're going to argue against something , at least get your facts right.

@Bananacloud I often wonder that on these threads I feel I will likely get abuse or barred for speaking out. Unfortunately we can get far to liberal and left wing and then sometimes the people they are trying to help, it hinders. Not only do you give choice to the Mother you give choices to people who influence her, like euthanasia. A woman can be left making a decision to please others.