To not pay childminder for Xmas day

[emmagreen481]

My DS’s childminder wants me to pay her for Xmas day & Boxing Day when she’s not even open?? Is this normal

www.pacey.org.uk/parents/working-with-your-childcarer/contracts-and-agreements/

If she insists on charging then I would tell her you will be dropping off your child/ren as usual on those two days. See how she likes that

You mean just like you would be cool with your employer calling you in to work on the 4 weeks (or whatever) of your annual leave as he/she is paying you, Silvery?

Why shouldn't they charge for bank holidays? If you're in a regular salaried job you'll be getting paid, after all...

@mumsastudent.

The OP may well be employed and then, of course, she will.
I imagine fee paying schools are paid one way or another in the holidays.

However, the childminder is self employed. Does the tax man know? Whatever you do, don't pay her in cash and write on the back of the cheque exactly what it is for.

Thing is, if you're self-employed you adjust your daily or hourly rates to include the cost of annual leave, sick pay, maternity pay, pension etc etc. Except you don't in you're in a low paid job, as you would price yourself out of the local market.

It's not just the face to face childminding, it's the premises, paperwork, registration etc costs that are included in the daily rate.

If you don't have a contract, you don't have a leg to stand on. But do ask her to draw up a contact in the New Year, as it saves all this argument and angst.

You can bet that most childminders who don't charge for holidays will have factored these days into their rates from day 1

Before I started childminding I wrote a business plan which included working out all of my costs so I knew how much I would need to charge per hour to make the business viable. I didn't charge for my holidays but those four weeks of zero pay plus a week at Christmas were factored into my overall costs so when I worked out my hourly rate I knew was charging enough to cover for them.

They do very long days, have to plan activities and keep records in line with EYFS, full house cleans everyday etc. It’s really not as simple as people make out.

Childminders basically do everything a nursery does in terms of early education, record keeping, hygiene standards, etc.

What I’m struggling to reconcile is that (in theory) if you have to pay your CM holidays, and then you will have your own annual leave (at least 4 weeks after BHs) then the CM is potentially getting paid for 8 weeks where she has no/less children.

At the start of the year I used to inform parents of when I would be taking my holidays that year so they had plenty of notice of when I'd be closed. Some of them would book their own leave for the same dates or would book different dates but the rule was the same regardless - if I was open then they were charged whether they sent their child or not, if I was closed then they weren't (and the cost of being closed was already factored into my overall hourly rate as explained above). There were a few exceptions to this explained in the contract but they were for specific circumstances (e.g., serious breach of contract on the parents side resulting in immediate withdrawal of care with four weeks notice still payable)

YABU for entering into a professional relationship without a contract. So is your CM. There are likely to be other, more serious fallings-out in future if this isn't sorted. You need a contract.

Yes to this and everyone else saying to get a contract. A contract sets out exactly what you can both expect from the relationship and gives you a point of reference to refer back to when issues like this arise.

Also check that she is properly qualified and registered. The penalty for working as an unregistered childminder is an unlimited fine and/or imprisonment, HMRC also take a dim view of it and if you've claimed any childcare element of Tax Credits they can ask you to pay it back as only registered childcare qualifies you for these payments.

Just read through and noticed she is a relative and you have no contract 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️
That’s stupid on both your parts.

You need to have a written agreement to avoid issues like this.

Im also flabbergasted at some of the horrid comments about Childminders. As if childcare pay isn’t shit enough, you begrudge them holiday pay. Maybe you would prefer it if they charged you more than £4-6 pound per hour?!

We are paying for Christmas Day and New Year's Day, because we pay her as if her employers and so pay for holiday pay. I don't mind doing this because a) we are self employed and would love to be paid holidays/sick pay and believe that is really important, and b) our childminder is brilliant so do not begrudge her this

The downside to self employment is you only get paid for the hours work you do, therefore bank holidays and holidays aren't covered.

Check your contract, there's no way I would have agreed to those terms if using a self employed service.

All those people outraged as self employed don't get holiday pay, don't seem to understand what this means.

All it means is they don't have an employer who is legally obliged to pay holiday pay.

But, rather obviously, they are going to have clients and will form a rate or contract to cover holiday pay.

You understand, because their income comes from a client, not an employer, obviously, their income over holidays comes from the client.

All you posters are doing is showing a lack of intelligence.
CM, on the other hand, are showing sensible financial planning.

ofsted check everything - you have to submit accounts each year to the inland revenue (& could I tell you some stories about that shower _ inland revenue! self employment & accounts - shudders at memory) so if she didn't submit her income ect she would be in serious trouble. What we don't know from this is how much cm is charging an hour, what is the local rate, what is included etc etc it differs radically from area to area. It could be that she charges slightly lower (we don't know) that she is more adaptable time wise, and rather than charging bigger sums when she works she charges through out year OR it could be that she claims benefits & she needs to have as set income (probably lower level maybe?) to continue to claim hb or ugh universal credit. Thing is we don't have enough information to make judgement. (ps I didn't personally charge for bank holidays or anytime I didn't want to look after dc but I charged decent amount the rest of year - horses for courses)

Lets start I need to earn £100 per week, every week, to make my business viable (invented figure for illustrative purposes, obviously).

£5200 a year.

I am open for 47 weeks of the year as I have four weeks holiday per year plus a week at Christmas, I do not charge fees for these weeks.

That means I need to charge a minimum of £110 a week in fees in order to make that £5200 over the 47 weeks that I'm open.

I'm still being 'paid' for my unpaid holidays, it's costed into my fees.

In reality I would also have costed in a buffer for any unexpected expenses (e.g., closure due to illness) and a buffer for any non-payment of fees.

I didn't pay for school holidays as I am a teacher and chose childminders who were not available over school holidays. Therefore I didn't pay Christmas, Easter, or any other bank holiday.

My CM was upfront about getting 4 days paid holiday per year over Christmas and New Year and I think that is reasonable. When she goes on holiday at other times she doesn't charge us. if we go on holidays, we pay our contracted rate. She's a wonderful childminder and has been so good to my DS that I wouldn't consider begrudging her those 4 days. I will also be getting her a big fat John Lewis voucher for her Christmas present.
She works 7am to 6pm every single day and she works bloody hard!

My childminder charges full fees for bank holidays, her holidays and sickness. I don't think it is that unusual.

You say you have no contract, but you should have checked these details before starting.

If there is no contract it's trický. Some childminders charge for bank holidays some don't. Usually you would have discussed this beforehand.
Do you want childcare after Christmas? If you do then you should pay otherwise you may well find yourself looking for a new childminder.
I'm a childminder. I charge half rate for my holidays but not bank holidays. All this is discussed up front and is in my contracts.
Some of the comments on here about how people have spoken to their childminders are very rude. I'm surprised your childminders haven't given you notice. I certainly would have.

lindy2 exactly - we don't know details & I seem to remember that you had to have contracts (ofsted???) or at least full info on dc - I am beginning to wonder if op sourced cm officially (is cm registered?) or got her on the cheap?

actually I use to work from 0700 to 1930 (& much later if parents got stuck on commutes) 7 days a week 48 weeks a year. not counting bloody accounting (tax) & paperwork (ofsted) training (which I paid for & voluntary worked at on sat am. & of course organising outings & craft projects & Christmas & Birthdays (& other festivals equal ops!) collecting dc (school playgroups etc) no matter what the weather & working through being ill because I didn't want to let the parents/carers down. Oh yes easy job, but I loved it & I loved the dc as I am sure most of the childminders here (retired now :)) do

I find it astonishing how many people seem unaware how a free market economy works. As with any product or service we buy, the provider of the product will charge whatever rate the local market will support. It’s really that simple.

Childminders could structure it openly as being holiday pay (which is unusual for self-employed people generally) or could raise their hourly rates to cover it. Either way, if the local market for their service allows them to charge a certain amount, they will. If there are too many providers/not enough demand in their area, they may have to charge less.

People are free to shop around if they think their childminder is charging too high.

Some insurance companies don't cover CMs without a contract, so I would never take someone on without a contract.

Being a CM is different to (most) other self employed positions in that we work set hours for years with the same family. I am happy to work most Bank Holidays, but all the families I work with have them off and I chose not to charge for my availability on those days. Each CM works out what is best for them and the families they work with. Some families have actually offered to pay me for holiday time, because they want a well rested person caring for their children. I have never taken them up on this offer. It's lovely to work with people who respect and appreciate the work I do for them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3453872-Nursery-charging-for-days-they-are-closed?pg=2

I think this is a bit cheeky as surely she is Self Employed and so shouldn't get holiday pay/ Sick pay . I would not be happy if a CM put this in my contract

If you don't have a contract does she have insurance when she's sole charge of your child????

I would not be happy if a CM put this in my contract

Then you're free to go elsewhere but it's standard for childminders to set their own terms and, as I and others have stated, the cost of those 'unpaid' weeks will have been factored into their overall fees so you're paying for them regardless.

Yes i pay mine full pay for bank holidays.