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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to be worried that 1/3 of women aren’t in employment and economically vulnerable?

698 replies

windygallows · 15/12/2018 09:42

ONS stats (latest from 2013) state that women of working age (16-64) only 67% are in the labour market, therefore 33% of women not in employment. That’s 1/3! Moreover of the 67% working, 42% of them work part time.

So that means it breaks down like this:
Women 16-64
Not in employment – 33%
Working part time – 28%
Working full time – 39%
Total - 100%

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/alldatausedinthewomeninthelabourmarketreport

Now I know there are a million reasons for these stats from women’s role as primary childcare provider to challenges women face finding flexible working, the glass ceiling, lower paid roles for women. I get it. And many on MN will inevitably remind me about the beneficial role women obvs make outside the labour market, from voluntary work to caring. And that work is not the be all and end all. And nor am I advocating for a life of constant work either.

But what these stats mean on the most basic, practical level is that the MAJORITY of women probably cannot cover their cost of living (either they don’t have an income or a limited income through pt work) and are probably reliant on someone for their sustenance – a partner, a parent, the government, family savings, their savings. This means the majority of women are economically vulnerable. Wouldn’t you say so?

Of course there will always be anomalies to this rule - the highly paid IT consultant who will say she can survive on her part-time salary or the woman with a trust fund. But these people are outside the norm. These stats tell me that the majority of women need someone else to support them financially. It’s scary!

PS - As an aside In 1959 52.9% of women were in the labour market and it’s now 67% - not a hugely dramatic difference

OP posts:
Satsumaeater · 18/12/2018 09:21

Childcare is a joint responsibility but so often you hear "it's not worth me working because childcare costs so much". Yes but if you set it off against family income rather than just your income, it is.

Being a SAHM is a valid life choice, yes, a husband may walk out and leave the wife vulnerable. My career is pretty high risk at the moment thanks to brexit. I could be made redundant at any time and our family will be left vulnerable. The situation is more complex than working women being stable and stay at home mums being vulnerable

I agree. But if you work at least you are able to keep up your skillset and hopefully save a bit for a rainy day. It's not just about not so DH going off with a younger model, he could also get ill or lose his job. If you don't have all your eggs in one basket you are less vulnerable. That said, where the DH is very wealthy/working for a decent employer, there is likely to be life and critical illness insurance, so that helps.

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 18/12/2018 09:29

snuggy postgraduate funding is now linked to your salary in the same way as undergrad funding is.

Hubanmao · 18/12/2018 09:31

If you don't have all your eggs in one basket you are less vulnerable

Quite apart from the above point made by satsumaeater (which I wholeheartedly agree with) I think it’s also about many people, men and women, wanting balance in their own life and not wanting to take on one specific role, be it ‘worker’ or ‘carer’ with the sacrifices that entails.

There will always be some couples where having the split roles works very well, as evidenced on the thread. But given that most couples probably start off with similar levels of qualification and skills in the workplace, and probably know as much as each other about the practicalities of childcare (sod all in the case of dh and I - don’t think either of us had ever changed a nappy til we had dc) then it seems fairly logical that many couples will want to have ‘some of both’. That’s a clumsy phrase- what I mean is, not being so desperately career driven that it entails the other partner having to sacrifice their own work life to facilitate it, but not giving up work completely either

SnuggyBuggy · 18/12/2018 09:31

@Blaa, I didn't know that but that's got to be a good thing and I'm glad to hear it

Hollycatberry · 18/12/2018 09:32

^^ I agree with Blaa.

Whilst I'm sure some woman make very informed choices with their partners, there must be many more woman put in the situation where they have to compromise their employment prospect and earning power to raise the family. This is often not a willing choice, it's just what they have to do because their partner's job isn't flexible or they don't earn that much or because there are no part time roles suitable.
I doubt everyone is thinking through all the impacts of those choices and getting pre-nups and pension contributions from their other halves, when the focus is getting through life day to day. We know household finances are generally tight and personal debt levels are high.

Another point to add is around financial acumen and literacy levels in England are quite low. I'm not sure what the UK picture is (sorry) but this is another factor to consider - people struggle to make the right financial decisions in the first place which can also end up leaving woman vulnerable in the case of a partner leaving / dying / losing their job.

www.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/news/2018/mar/england-has-one-lowest-levels-financial-literacy-study-says

www.lovemoney.com/news/72461/financial-illiteracy-school-lessons-personal-education-uk

SnuggyBuggy · 18/12/2018 09:36

The lack of knowledge about the rights for unmarried couples and the enduring myth of common law marriage is scary.

SaltPans · 18/12/2018 09:36

Why doesn’t OP just campaign for a fit for purpose benefits system, including the state pension - such as asking why is it the lowest in Europe at 29% of average earnings? Why not complain about sanctions, the bedroom tax, the corrupt assessments for ESA and PIP....,these affect THE most vulnerable people, who most likely can’t work, no matter how much they would like to?

Universal free child care won’t solve the problems of poverty, stigma and ignorance for the disabled, the elderly and their carers!

F1ame · 18/12/2018 09:37

One thing that has come as a total eye-opener to me on MN is how many women are married with children, yet seem to have totally separate finances and no concept of family money. So they say things like, “I’ve saved enough to take a year’s maternity.” Hmm Or, “After paying for childcare, I will only be left with £10 “personal spends” a week while DH has £300.” I get livid reading this kind of scenario, yet some women seem to think this is “independence.” Shock Talk about letting your DH have his cake and eat it! You have a baby, take time out, take the hit to your career, yet fund yourself while he sails on with no impact whatsoever. Shock What is the actual point of useless men like this and why why why do women let them get away with it? If your husband doesn’t even see his duty to support you through having his children, you are better off alone. Women shouldn’t touch these men with a barge pole because it’s exactly this kind of attitude and compliance with it that leaves women financially vulnerable.

ParPitieh · 18/12/2018 09:47

Place marking as I've put myself in a vulnerable position- stupid I am.

Have a 3 year old and unable to leave my bully, waste of space, sexist partner due to financial difficulties. Can't claim any benefits because he's asset rich and wants me to do all the domestic and childcare work because I don't pay rent and bills. Funny that, as when I mentioned full time employment, he lost and said we're going to have problems if I get a job. I'm also a bad mother because I don't want to stay at home take care of our DD. I mean, he's not paying in to my pension, he doesn't give me money to spend on what I want.

F1ame · 18/12/2018 09:54

Par - Im so sorry to hear this. So you are the mother of his child and he’s in the mentality that you owe him rent and bills - as you are his bloody flatmate or midget or something! This is exactly what I mean and everything that is wrong with men today.

Do you have access to a joint account or is he literally giving you handouts? Is there anywhere else you could go, relatives or friends?

Didthatreallyhappen2 · 18/12/2018 09:55

I haven't RTFT but this is a very interesting discussion evidently.

Personally I suppose I must come under the 1/3 that the OP is talking about, in that I'm a SAHM and have been for years, and am economically vulnerable because we rely on DH's wages for everything. However he relies on me for everything else, running the home, DC, absolutely everything. I don't feel that I'm vulnerable in the slightest; we both contribute equally to our relationship, it just so happens that his contribution can be measured in monetary terms whereas mine can't. So I don't actually need the OP to be worried about me, because I'm not!

I apologise if this has been said (in some form or other) upthread. Merry Christmas everyone.

Xenia · 18/12/2018 09:55

Par, he cannot stop you working so why not go back to full time work and put the child in a nursery even if that takes most of your net salary?

F1ame · 18/12/2018 09:55

Sorry tenant not midget. Typing too fast in outrage.

Hollycatberry · 18/12/2018 10:01

Why doesn’t OP just campaign for a fit for purpose benefits system, including the state pension - such as asking why is it the lowest in Europe at 29% of average earnings?

Making women reliant on the government doesn't reduce financial vulnerability. Benefit systems change with political will which can leave women worse off and having no safety net. See changes to the retirement age as an example.

We need to strive for financial freedom. Allowing women to keep more of the money they earn, in their own pocket, so they can make their own choices free from inference from anyone else.

ParPitieh · 18/12/2018 10:04

you owe him rent and bills

Yes. He knows that if I don't work I can't contribute financially. He was expecting that I use my pitence savings. In turn, for not making a financial contribution, I am to do all cooking, cleaning, walking his dog and all the childcare. He sleeps in on the weekend and never lifts a finger.

I bet he expects me to get him Christmas presents too. I can't even afford anything decent for DD Sad

There's a joint account, but it's empty.

Xenia

I know he can't stop me, but he will blow his top if I'm not home to clean the house and do the childcare.

F1ame · 18/12/2018 10:11

Par - this is financial and emotional abuse, but I guess you know that. You sound scared of him. When you say “blow his top,” are you physically frightened if him? Is there anywhere you can go today or do you have anyone who you can talk to in real life?

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 18/12/2018 10:13

par I'm so sorry to hear that. He is abusing you. As you are saying 'partner' i'm guessing you aren't married?
You are vulnerable now but it doesn't have to remain that way. Do you have any support IRL?

ParPitieh · 18/12/2018 10:33

He won't harm me physically, but he will use his money to take DD away from me as he's said she's better off living with him as he can provide for her. If I stick up for myself, which is what I do mostly it will just make him angrier so now I just think it best to keep quiet.

We are not married.

I wouldn't dare tell anyone around me about what's going on. In fact we are in couples therapy but the counsellor hasn't seemed to have clicked that he's causing me distress. Plus, is rather not have SS involved. I'm staying until I'm in a better place financially, hopefully.

Oakmaiden · 18/12/2018 10:34

ONS stats (latest from 2013) state that women of working age (16-64) only 67% are in the labour market...the employment rate for women at 50 is 76.4% and that includes both part and full time work.

Clipped together two of your posts here.

I actually think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Current figures (March 2018) show that 70.8% of women are in some form of paid employment - this compares with 79.7% of men. When you take into consideration that many women do stop work to raise a family, and when you are going up to 64 years of age you do still have a handful of the older generation still in the figures, where women working was more unusual, I don't think this is hugely disproportionate. I reckon over the next 15 years the figures will close even more.

What does concern me is the disproportion in the number of part time workers - 42% of women compared to 13% of men. Now part time work is amazing - I would far prefer to live in a household where both partners could work 3-4 day weeks, rather than having one "main wage earner" and one working around 15 hours... and obviously again some of this is through choosing to work part time to fit around childcare and similar responsibilities... but I wonder how many of these part time workers are actually part time through choice, and are working the number of hours they would choose to work?

F1ame · 18/12/2018 10:39

He can’t take your daughter from you. You are the main caregiver and the mother. Married or not, he will be forced to give you maintenance if you leave him (though I suspect he’ll wangle it to get away with the absolute minimum). He won’t change.

What is the situation now - is your DD at nursery at all? Why dont you dare to talk to anyone? Do you have family around?

BlaaBlaaBlaa · 18/12/2018 10:40

He won't harm me physically, but he will use his money I really don't mean to scare you but my mum said the exact same words to me about her partner. He killed her a week later. He had never laid a finger on her previously. You are in an abusive relationship and you need to leave for you safety and your daughter's.
Couples therapy is not recommended where abuse is present.

TeacupDrama · 18/12/2018 10:56

I am 50 my DD is 9 both I and DH work PT and are self employed I don't intend to work FT again DH might if his business takes off better
I worked FT before I had DD but I think 2 parents PT or 1 FT and 1PT works best, I have a good pension of which I can take 85% at age 60, DH not so good but enough NI for full state pension.
however PT is not a financial option for some but it doesn't make it a bad choice or a worrying choice depending on circumstances

Hubanmao · 18/12/2018 11:06

Saltpans, encouraging women to rely on the precariousness of state benefits is hardly going to help them financially, or indeed in terms of their sense of self reliance. Benefits are subject to changes in govt whims and do nothing to secure long term financial safety.

All the same, if you feel strongly about those issues why not start your own thread? It’s a bit bizarre to berate the OP for starting a thread on one topic, complaining that she hasn’t started it on several others!

SaltPans · 18/12/2018 11:12

*Making women reliant on the government doesn't reduce financial vulnerability. Benefit systems change with political will which can leave women worse off and having no safety net. See changes to the retirement age as an example.

We need to strive for financial freedom. Allowing women to keep more of the money they earn, in their own pocket, so they can make their own choices free from inference from anyone else.*

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I am talking about the people, who can’t work - say someone with advancing MS, or severe mental health problems in and out of in-patient units for years, or early dementia, or learning disabilities.....They are not going to get a job, and the freedom to keep their earnings is irrelevant!

Anyway, it’s a specious argument to say it’s no good arguing for adequate benefits because the government can change its mind; the government could introduce free childcare one year and withdraw it the next; or decide to tax the higher earner in any family at 90%, or introduce 100% inheritance tax on the death of the first spouse if it wanted!

Write · 18/12/2018 11:13

I’m early 30s, single and own my own home and I have just recently exited from the workforce and have no intention of returning until I get a degree+ because I just cannot do the barely above minimum wage jobs I have been doing my whole life anymore.