..to be worried that 1/3 of women aren’t in employment and economically vulnerable?

[windygallows]

ONS stats (latest from 2013) state that women of working age (16-64) only 67% are in the labour market, therefore 33% of women not in employment. That’s 1/3! Moreover of the 67% working, 42% of them work part time.

So that means it breaks down like this:
Women 16-64
Not in employment – 33%
Working part time – 28%
Working full time – 39%
Total - 100%

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/alldatausedinthewomeninthelabourmarketreport

Now I know there are a million reasons for these stats from women’s role as primary childcare provider to challenges women face finding flexible working, the glass ceiling, lower paid roles for women. I get it. And many on MN will inevitably remind me about the beneficial role women obvs make outside the labour market, from voluntary work to caring. And that work is not the be all and end all. And nor am I advocating for a life of constant work either.

But what these stats mean on the most basic, practical level is that the MAJORITY of women probably cannot cover their cost of living (either they don’t have an income or a limited income through pt work) and are probably reliant on someone for their sustenance – a partner, a parent, the government, family savings, their savings. This means the majority of women are economically vulnerable. Wouldn’t you say so?

Of course there will always be anomalies to this rule - the highly paid IT consultant who will say she can survive on her part-time salary or the woman with a trust fund. But these people are outside the norm. These stats tell me that the majority of women need someone else to support them financially. It’s scary!

PS - As an aside In 1959 52.9% of women were in the labour market and it’s now 67% - not a hugely dramatic difference

Because life isn't all about rationality.

Sometimes good things happen when we stop trying to plan our lives and follow what feels right instead.

Fgs speakout is that really your advice in financial and economic planning for women? Just to wait for the good things to happen when it feels right?

Trademark Disney.

Fgs speakout is that really your advice in financial and economic planning for women? Just to wait for the good things to happen when it feels right?

Being a SAHM is a valid life choice, yes, a husband may walk out and leave the wife vulnerable. My career is pretty high risk at the moment thanks to brexit. I could be made redundant at any time and our family will be left vulnerable. The situation is more complex than working women being stable and stay at home mums being vulnerable.

windygallows

Well that "Disney" approach has worked for me!

I think, it's very weird that you are so over invested in the affairs of others.

I mean really - "worried"????

I hope your concern for me and my Disney choices don't keep you awake at night.

Speakout most social and political change has come from people being worried about others and looking beyond their individual circumstances. It's sad you can't do that.

Your perspective and life view to just 'take the plunge' isn't helpful for women but glad it worked out for you since that seems to be what matters to 'you'.

As it happens it has been "helpful for women".

I have had the time to train and work as a breastfeeding counsellor and helped thousands of women ver the years.

Or is that not counted because it cannot be monetarised?

I think you are very blinkered.

I am not a huge fan of establishment thinking, and I think sometimes the best outcomes happen when we take a plunge.

If you do have the luxury of choosing whether to work or not make sure you are married, not just living together, make sure there is a will in your favour, ideally have a post-nup too, perhaps reach agreement on what will happen when the youngest is 5 eg will your husband then agree to put his all into your career or not (make sure you are on the same page on that). Also put some assets in the lower earner's name (not that that matters if you divorce but if you stay married it can financially protect you more). Most of all have knowledge - read each other's tax returns, read each other's bank statements, credit card bills, his P60 he gets each year from work etc etc. have open communication and knowledge and indeed interest in financial matters. Eg we often get on divorce threads here that women didn't know about a husband's small one person company - try to find out before you divorce.

I feel quite pissed off that I'm expected to work (i know that is infantile and unreasonable). I've taken advantage of some of equal rights - education and divorce but i would also love the expectation that I stay home. I do know that's wrong, if i choose to divorce i must support myself which I do.

We are also "the caring sex" and i look after both elderly parents (thankfully no ILs), a disabled child/young adult and another young adult who needs a lot of emotional support atm. Whilst working and attempting to run a home. I'm certainly not alone in being under enormous strain and not making enough money. Despite my X being a twat at least possibly i could have worked less if i had stayed married.

I don't think you gent it speakout. Glad it worked for you. Just make sure the plunge includes a male wallet!

Don’t be catty windy

I literally have never imagined my future as a woman that doesn’t work because she married a rich man. I thought even in the midsts of time when I was a girl that this was incredibly dated and sexist? When I imagine being rich and not having to work it’s because I’ve won the lottery or my book has become an international bestseller

Very wise advice from Xenia there. Though of course "the luxury of choosing whether to work" only applies above a certain income level: if you earn less than childcare costs, then going to work will be the luxury. I worked at a loss because we worried about the future implications of my losing contact with the workplace.

corythatwas I think that is quite sensible as the 'family' might be seeing a loss now but the long term view is often different.

However, is it really 'you' working at a loss. I really don't like to see childcare viewed as purely the women's responsibility and therefore her wage. I think that view has a massive impact on some women giving up work when it should just be viewed as just another bill for the family to consume.

It’s not over invested to recognise and debate the fact that women as a group are far more financially vulnerable than men, and that women are far more likely to end up underemployed, in low status low paid work, despite having had the same educational opportunities as men.

If you’ve decided to SAH or downsize your job, and you and your partner (if you have one) are both happy with this decision and you have safeguards in place to protect yourself financially- great! You don’t need to defend your position on here. This thread is about the majority of women who arent financially secure for their future

@Blaa, parents who can throw money at you is always helpful. In my case if it had been a bad decision and I'd taken on 10K or more debt my parents could have bailed me out but at a great cost if that makes sense. It wouldn't have meant ruin but I'd have found it stressful and been pretty upset to put my parents through that.

Personality is complex and people are individuals but it was such a close decision that I wonder if a socialized male me would have been less concerned about the effect on his parents and taken the risk and potentially gained a better job.

That said I think loads of post grad masters are a con but that's besides the point of this thread.

windy- First of all, we are all concerned about the situation of women, not just in the UK, but across the world. Don’t conflate disagreement / different perspectives with “they must be dim.”

Raising an issue is one thing, but you do betray yourself a little with snide quips, such as “make sure it’s a male wallet,” “living off a man,” etc etc. These snipes speak volumes. Can you really not see how you might come across as having an agenda? You are on a lot of threads about SAHMs in general and people will wonder why you would be so “worried.”

I really don't like to see childcare viewed as purely the women's responsibility and therefore her wage.

I think this is an important point. And of course, it is not only the immediate term that is an issue - it is things like building up a national insurance record for the full state pension, paying into a work place pension. Financial hardship for older women is a genuine issue that I think, as women, we should 'worry' about, even if we think it won't affect us personally. When you are struggling to survive with young children, your finances in old age will be the last thing on your mind - but it another example of where men staying in the workplace has a real and lasting benefit for them throughout their lives, to the detriment of women.

I think, it's very weird that you are so over invested in the affairs of others I'm not concerned with what individuals do, my female friends range from SAHM for nearly 20 years to working f/t flying abroad most weeks. It's about structural issues which make the 'choices' constrained and the balance of benefits different than they would be otherwise. That people can't see there are any constraints, or that women aren't disadvantaged, or that things are different elsewhere is quite puzzling to me, even if you 'do what's best' (surely we are all doing that?) within the system as it exists.

snuggy ouch I'm course leader for 2 post grad masters 😉

There's been some research done recently on attitudes to student debt ( looked at undergrad but it's reasonable to assume you can apply it to post grad) and ingrained cultural attitude to debt can have a huge impact on whether someone chooses to go university. Working class people, in general, are debt averse and are less likely to take that risk. This one example which demonstrates that people's ability to make choices are not completely equal.

F1ame. I know I was a bit snippy with my last few posts but I just don’t understand women who say ‘it worked out for me’ and inevitably they are relying on a man for everything. I’m not sure that’s a helpful message.

I suppose part of me does take it a bit personally as I am a single parent and I work ft and sometimes the posts from such women come across as a bit smug eg ‘I found a man to pay my way, why can’t you?!’ Sigh!

I don’t think one person on this thread would argue that structural constraints don’t exist. Nobody really needs enlightening on that. It’s stating the obvious.

windy - credit to you for owning to that and, by the same token, I wholeheartedly apologise if I come across as smug in describing my situation or that of people I know.

For the record though, I did not set out to “marry a rich man.” It wouldn’t have occurred to me in my 20s. Yes he was always very driven, other people often commented on that, even though I was a bit oblivious to it. The money he has made has mainly been since we had the DC. It does feel like a joint enterprise because we both just did what came most naturally to us, I guess, though I know some people will see it as “living off a man’s wallet.”

It may seem like the structural constraints are obvious but the impact of them isn’t always. If it were, I doubt we’d have the scary percentage of women who don’t realise that they don’t have enough pension provision for their older age. Or the number of women who struggle to get a foothold back in the workplace after years out. Or the number of women who get screwed over in the event of divorce. Or the number of women who feel they can’t continue working because of childcare costs.

Is it stating the obvious though F1 ? Some of the posts on this thread would suggest otherwise.

The impact of these constraints are far reaching and underappreciated in many cases. Which is why we have a large number od financially vulnerable women.

@Blaa, don't want to brand all post grad study as a waste, can only speak for my own area, I knew lots of people who had done them only to be left with lots of debt and no career. That said graduating during the recession doesn't help.

With undergrad your debt repayment is linked to your salary but postgraduate isn't, I knew someone who had to work long hours stacking shelves in a desperate attempt to make her loan repayments. That scared me.

It's definitely true our decision making is affected by things such as our sex, class and background. It's naive to think otherwise.

For people in low paid work all the options seem crap. You are either dependent on benefits, dependent on parents or dependent on your partner. There is no security or dignity with low paid work these days.

Also don't you get NI credits if you claim child benefit? I also know a lot of SAHMs whose partners pay their NI. That said the state pension seems too little too late.