To think pre school should help we wipe his bum?

[Sparrowlegs248]

He's 3 yrs 4 months. Can go for a wee on his own with the occasional bit of wee getting on trousers. But he just can't clean his own bum after a poo. He comes home with pooey pants and sore bum.

@Sleepyblueocean I have a dd with ASD who soiled herself a lot in nursery. But it isn't the job of the teacher and if they don't have enough staff, what can they do?

Should say my dd (6) was only diagnosed this year, so wasn't diagnosed in preschool.

Right or not, those are the rules in the major of primary schools. Teachers aren't expected , and in most cases have safeguarding policies against, wiping children.

It's a part of gaining independence and is difficult - however with help, the majority of childreb by 5 should be able to wipe with minimal help. Of course diagnosis is an issue and there is cases where children with ALN arent yet diagnosed, however school policies are school policies and nothing parents can really do about that. They can ask for other staff to help their child, which I am sure could be arranged, and the school would need to make reasonable adjustments. They couldn't insist that the teacher helped with toileting

They have a duty of care to the children. Not cleaning up a child is failing in that duty of care. If they cannot find the staff then perhaps the nursery shouldn't remain open.

Lots of school nurseries are closing be suet the money from funding isn't enough to cover costs.

I'm not saying I agree with it. My daughter constantly had a sore bottom. Now they fail her in many other ways, she is in the mainstream school.

Policies don't trump the law and parents do have ways they can report unlawful behaviour by schools.

School nursery teachers (not nursery nurses) are not required to wipe children. It isn't in their job description z and in many schools is against safeguarding policy to do so.

Nurseries are different. By nursery I mean private day nurseries which op uses. Not school nurseries from 3.5 onwards. Private nurseries certainly should change nappies and wipe.

Teachers, either private or nursery, are not required to. It isn't in their job description and they don't have the time, and the short answer is they won't do it, in schools. Whether you or I disagree doesn't change anything. It is a fact that teachers do not wipe children for various reasons, many posters have said that.

Schools and nursery school is not the same as a day nurseey, they have different ruke

If it's that unlawful, how do the majority of schools have these policies? They can no longer refuse children still in nappies (good). They are not required to change those nappit (also good, that is a nursery nurses job not a teachers)

Those with SN aside, I don't see how little kids learn to do this without it being somewhat coerced. It's part of the path towards independence.

I know that teachers aren't required to clean up/ change but someone has to do it.

Any person in charge of a child under the age of 8 should absolutely, without question, be responsible for attending to all of their needs.

There is no safeguarding issue regarding toileting for people who are looking after children in a nursery and in primary school. Apart from time and staff constraints there are no issues regarding helping a child with their basic needs. It might well be policy but that is not law and, as a policy, it stinks. Any nursery or preschool worth their salt will either do, if the child is unable to do it themselves, or teach and assist the child to do it themselves.

It is ridiculous in the extreme to say all 3yr olds can do it, or all 8yr olds should be able to. Children are individuals with unique needs and there is not a blanket approach. And frankly, any person who thinks all 3 year olds can wipe their own bottoms, or any person who thinks helping is a safeguarding issue, should not be working with children in the first place.

As for calling the parent each time, what a totally ridiculous suggestion. Can you imagine the fallout at work when Mary In accounts is called out three times during her working day to go and help her child wipe its bottom?

If it really was a safeguarding issue, or not allowed by ofsted or any other governing body, then there wouldn't be any childminders, or nannys because they are working alone.

It's lazy childcare at best, with nurseries, pre-schools and schools using "best practice" as an excuse to vacate their responsibilities.

And just for context, I have been working with the under 8's for 40 yrs. I have worked in schools, hospitals, private homes, nurseries and for the past 18 yrs at home as a childminder and I have not once called a parent because their child has needed help with personal care and I have never had a complaint made against me for wiping a child's bottom

Someone has to, I agree. If a child has ALN that means they can't do it, then schools need to make reasonable adjustments. This would include getting a member of staff to support the child. If the parent doesn't raise the issue with school or suggest they need extra support, then schools would encourage children to do it themselves, perhaps guide them when they've had an accident. But if there are no ALN concerns raised by parents, it is normal for teachers to encourage independence in children

Sleepy blue ocean

I wholeheartedly agree that teachers are unreasonable to be ducking out of a basic care/welfare function. It is made worse, and utterly shameful, to use 'safeguarding reasons' as an excuse, simply because they think you can’t argue against it.

But I don’t understand why people always say it’s illegal/unlawful to have such a policy.

Precisely which law is being broken and who is going to prosecute them?

Ok. To clarify....

1. Ds is 3 yrs 4 months. There are children we still in nappies .

2 it's a pre school, at the same site as a school but not affiliated to the school.

1. I've signed a consent form to say that staff can help him toilet. They changes his nappies before he was toilet trained.
2. He can attempt to wipe but really isn't at the stage of doing it properly, as evidenced by the pooey pants.

itsaboojum teachers don't have to provide personal care but the setting has to provide it if a child requires it. The law that would be broken if a setting does not provide it would be to do with the equality act 2010.

Sleepyblueocean

Thanks for the answer. But under the Act, within which protected characteristic would anyone claim the child had been unfairly treated?

Disability.

No teacher should do this. It is not part of their terms and conditions, and does require the professional skills and judgement of a teacher.

The school need to organise for support staff nursery nurse to be trained in this.

IntentsAndPorpoises

But wouldn’t the child have to be registered disabled in order to show they had been unfairly treated on the grounds of disability?

It could be considered indirect discrimination. Where a policy when carried out disadvantages disabled children.

The Equality Act 2010 states that schools must not discriminate against or disadvantage disabled children or those with special educational needs. A delay in achieving continence - or not being toilet trained - is considered a disability. It is therefore not acceptable for a school to refuse or delay admission to children who are not yet continent.

From the Eric website.

So why is it that so many schools (and I know quite a few that do) are merrily continuing to flout the Law and treat such a major piece of equality legislation with such absolute contempt?

I can’t help thinking that the answer, in part, lies in your earlier reply: "No teacher should do this........[etc]…"

Does it not boil down to the fact that schools see their function as purely "educational" and anything else, sic welfare included, is simply beneath them?

Or are they simply above/outside the Law?

A lot of them won't know the law. They are lead by Heads that aren't legal or HR experts.

The same reason many employers discriminate against disabled people. Because they get away with it until someone challenges them.

And no a teacher should not have to change and do toileting. A TA, nursery nurse or assistant is capable. You do not need to be trained as a teacher to do it. Whereas there are things that need teacher training.

I work for a teaching union (after 15 years as a teacher) and Heads say and do all sorts of things, including discriminate against pregnant women, disabled staff, try and make part timers work for free on days off. Sometimes out of ignorance and sometimes because they think they can get away with it.

I think in some places now they are desperately short of money and staff. And therefore try and discourage anything that needs more staff. These policies are unlikely to be written down.

But state schools have governors who frequently include members of the legal profession. More to the point, schools operate under local authorities, which do check their policies and have large, experienced legal departments.

I just find it hard to believe. This subject comes up so often. It seems to involve a lot of schools, not to mention preschool settings. People are always absolutely convinced it is unlawful.

But if it is so cut and dried as we’re told, then where are the hundreds of successful court actions under the Equality Act that must surely be the natural conclusion to all this?

Even if individual parents didn’t take this to law, then surely it would have been taken up by the numerous pressure groups representing parents, children or people with disabilities. For that matter, why not one of the various teaching unions, if their members feel so strongly?

The fact that it isn’t happening seems to suggest there might not, after all be proper case for arguing that such a policy is unlawful.

The unions can only support members in employment issues. The Head wouldn't consult the governors on everything.

Lots of schools are not local authority anymore, they are academies. They can make their own decisions. Be abuse of this most local authorities have had to wind down their education departments because there aren't enough schools using it to warrant it.

Why aren't their numerous discrimination cases for disabled employees? Be abuse you need to know that it's illegal, first. Then have the ability to challenge and the means.

I spend large chunks of my week 'fighting' for basic services for my ASD daughter at school, clubs, with DLA, doctors, therapists. It's endless and exhausting. So not everything gets fought.