pip assessor lies

[1littleduck]

Hi all.
I have read a lot of your posts regarding lies made by the pip assessors and I am joining your club.
My rejection letter was received on Friday and is a total fabrication to which I am going to fight all the way.
I had an assessor pointing, shouting and threatening me because I had a panic attack. They stated that I demonstrated good power and movement in my legs when I spent the whole duration of the assessment sitting with my feet up on the couch.
Could I make a suggestion. Is anyone familiar with starting a campaign and raising signatures for the government to make a new law stating that 'if an Employed assessor provides deliberate false and misleading information relating to any part of an assessment they can be personally sued for liable whether or not they are working on behalf of any company employed to carry out the task. If the company responsible for supplying the information requested deliberately alters the report, then the officer making the alterations should be named and is therefore also guilty of a criminal act and can be sued as an individual'
I am sure this, providing false documentation, is a criminal act but not clear weather an individual can be sued for it, but saying that, If we manage to get such a law passed through parliament then the days of the sheer fabrication, dishonest reporting and dam right lies of the PIP reports would be a thing of the past.

I know we will need 10,000 signatures for this to be debated in parliament and would think we could well exceed this if we tried.

My DM's story is just the same as others.

She reported she's blind in one eye, they specifically say she can see out of both eyes.

She says she can't lift her arm above a certain level without a tremendous amount of pain (a chronic condition after an injury, as a nurse, lifting a patient), they say she refuses to lift above her head.

In the end we appealed, (she was lucky I was doing all the research), she actually went to an Employment Tribunal, where it said, she was entitled to be left alone by DWP for 3 years and for her claim to be backdated. I remember she called me on my DD's birthday to say she'd won. 3 months later, DWP were contacting her again about her claim.

I got in contact with them, explained the fact that they were not supposed to be contacting her for 3 years, that she hadn't actually made another claim and that if we hear from them again it will be considered harassment.

It wouldn't be quite so bad if tribunals were held in a timely manner, say no more than 3 months from date of appeal, rather than people having to wait for over a year. My daughter's appeal was held while the system was still in its infancy and took 9 months to happen, which I thought was shocking but excused because the system was so new. Surely, I thought, once everything is properly streamlined the waiting period will become shorter.

Last year I went to tribunal with my friend who has various mental health conditions. She waited 15 months. She was awarded the PIP but they could only give her it up to the 2 year mark, so although she didn't get any money until July 2018 she has to start the whole process again in February 2019.

So the situation has become exponentially worse, not better.

I was one of the lucky ones. I had a lifetime award for DLA - medium care & high mobility. Got assessed for the transfer to PIP July 17. Capita assessment at home. Got awarded PIP enhanced care & enhanced mobility for 10 years. The assessor was kind and put the facts down correctly.

Maybe we could start collecting people's stories and present them to the Prime Minister. With parameters that show the truth- recent experiences rather than older ones that can be dismissed as 'things have changed since then' and a small amount of evidence for each. maybe a sample of the report with a Tribunal statement, medical letter or personal statement that contradicts that. I don't know what the data collection implications would be though.

Also a push for people to report dishonest medical professionals to the relevant body.

I wonder how some of these assessors can live with themselves.

My OHs story is similar to others, he wasn't awarded PIP, he felt so defeated he didn't want to appeal, even though he definitely needs and deserves PIP.

We will be trying again, when I can bolster him round.

Yes, some claimants lie, but the lies absolutely do not go "both ways", because only one way has got dozens - if not hundreds - of people killed.

I don't know what campaigning is currently going on on this, OP, but the Disability News Service - disabilitynewsservice.com - might be of some help for finding out about this specific idea. Because you're right that there should be consequences.

I know most people are much more disablist than they like to pretend. But I also think that the fact that there hasn't been enough of an outcry over this is due to how brazen it is.

It's incredible that people involved in the process can simply make up what they submit and, once it's found to be a lie, still have a job afterwards. I think most people who hear about it probably have trouble getting their heads round that.

It's not always the assessor that lies. Their reports are subject to 100% audit initially, and they are referred back time and again to be amended and made less favourable to the applicant.

A friend (former nurse) went to work for Capita as an assessor and failed her probation because she refused to lie, another that I know through friends left after a few months and went back to doing bank work because she hated being told what to put in her reports.

Rather than hold individual assessors liable, I think it would be better if the companies carrying out the assessments were liable for the cost of any subsequent appeals that succeed. With appeal success rates running at 70-80%, they might be a bit less inclined to misrepresent things.

It's much harder for the assessment companies to get away with lying when you have strong documentary evidence. I've had awards made without any assessment at all when the applicant has got really good evidence. My first piece of advice to anyone applying for PIP (or completing an ESA50) is to get as much supporting evidence as they can.

It wouldn't be quite so bad if tribunals were held in a timely manner, say no more than 3 months from date of appeal, rather than people having to wait for over a year.

I doubt if there are enough suitably qualified people to sit on tribunals to reduce the hearing waiting list to 3 months. It's currently 50 weeks wait from submission to hearing where I live and work, gone up from about 20 weeks 10 years ago.

See these previous threads

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3107566-AIBU-to-be-terrified-of-my-PIP-assessment

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3133923-To-think-that-my-PIP-assessor-has-deliberately-told-lies?pg=1

Sir Ernest Ryder is trying to sort out the amount of caes the DWP send to tribunal because the majority are a waste of everyone's time
www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2017/november/senior-judge-says-dwp-evidence-tribunals-so-poor-it-would-be-wholly-inadmissible

This is a case from an agency that helps disabled claimants like "Peter" www.z2k.org/about-us/latest/a-case-study-in-incompetence/

Something I didn't know was mentioned on there
"The judge went on to “strongly recommend” that 'Peter' should draw this to the attention of his MP and should seek compensation under the DWP’s Financial Redress for Maladministration scheme He even included a link to the website!"

So many horror stories caused by the PIP assessors.. and 'yes' I also know of people who are claiming fraudulently so surely having the assessors submit accurate reports saves us a lot of money from all the tribunals we don't have to fund and this money would be better spend by employing people to randomly check on the people who are already claiming. a system should be in place where you don't need to report people just enter a postcode on a designated web site and let the system sort it from there. PIP have records of where all claimants live, this will ensure correct reporting, create more jobs and cut the fraudsters down big time. The system really does have to change and the only people who can do this is us!

Just found a link to their guide for that scheme here DWP’s Financial Redress for Maladministration scheme assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/736194/financial-redress-for-maladministration-dwp-staff-guide.pdf

They took mine away twice and won on appeal (paper) the first time- they are now making bad mistakes awaken, saying silly things like 'no diagnosis' (when it is there on the paperwork) so going to have to appeal again. but they are taking so long with the MR it is a trial to even get to that stage.

again, I meant.

She was shouting and screaming at you. With or without a panic attack in the mix. That is abuse. !!!!!!!. No 2 ways about it.
I hope you're going to appeal. Oh and tell them about the abuse and like I say. It was abuse.
If you had lied you'd be hauled backwards forwards sideways upsidedown over the coals. Ooh be under no illusions.
Why is it okay for the powers that be to lie.

My friend's judge said in the statement that the DWP had given incorrect advice and that next time she should get professional help to fill in the form. Which is nice, but shows that even judges are clueless about the fact this help doesn't exist.

My first piece of advice to anyone applying for PIP (or completing an ESA50) is to get as much supporting evidence as they can

I agree, although lots of health professionals nowadays like GPs will not issue a letter stating Person A has the following conditions and the treatment for them is as follows.

Also lots of conditions under the SN/SEN category are lifelong and as many people were diagnosed in childhood, there is no current medical report on their condition, nor should there be. They are not illnesses that can be treated or cured but in many instances they are disabling.

I obtained my relative's GP records and Hospital records and copied all reports and letters that specifically related to medical conditions referred to in the PIP claim and submitted every one.

DWP should pay to take a case to Tribunal, currently it costs them nothing and they are absolutely clogging up the system with cases that have irrefutable medical evidence to support them.

Hi OP

I don't have any experience in this area but don't think this would ever get passed.

There are corporate manslaughter laws in place for if someone actually makes decisions in work that kill people...and it rarely gets used to convict people.

Even if the laws did get passed the police wouldn't waste their time on it.

I think it might be more effective to work out why the assessors are doing this and see if guidelines and practices can be changed to prevent it happening

For example I assume they are targeted to have x number of rejections or something. If so - This is clearly wrong! Maybe someone from the process could explain how it works on here? What currently happens to those assessors who's cases go to tribunal and it turns out they lied - are they sacked?

It may be worth campaigning instead for the interviews to be allowed to be recored by both the assessor and assessee on mobiles or camcorders or something. This would make people much more honest and cut down time and money on tribunals.

Or get assessors to produce a bullet point very very short summary while they are there and get the assessee to sign it

Depending on how the process works it may just be a case of making a simple change for example instead of being targeted on numbers of rejections they are targeted on low numbers of disputes or tribunals. People who are found by tribunals to have lied where it's a clear lie and not just a mistake should be sacked etc.

Please feel free to take whatever I said with a pinch of salt as I don't have any direct experience here. I am very sorry this happened to you though and agree something needs to change

This is interesting reading on this topic. www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/inquiries/parliament-2017/pip-esa-assessments-17-19/

Ps I am aware that a wrong assessment could kill someone, I should have said directly kill someone for corporate manslaughter

My dsis has PSP. It’s a life limiting neurological disorder. Dudley Moore died from it.

Her assessor stated she could walk unaided. She uses a wheelchair. Cannot walk by herself or with a walking aid.

My sister has an electric bed. She has a rising electric chair. She needs her food cut up. She has problems swallowing. She can’t verbally communicate very well anymore.

She can’t wash or dress herself.

Just a small snapshot of her life now (3 years ago she was working, on her feet all day).

She was assessed as lower rate care/mobility. She appealed (or rather her welfar rights officer appealed on her behalf).

She has now been awarded higher rate mobility (thanks to her wonderful OT). Her consultants report came in to late so her care rate may go to tribunal.

I read the original assessment. I’m a registered nurse. It was a pure piece of fiction. I don’t know how the assessor sleeps at night.

There are some decent ones about. I was assessed for PIP and got higher rate for both elements. The assessor was professional and kind.

I was honestly quite surprised because when I was assessed for DLA years ago I was turned down flat and had to go to appeal. Appealing is very disheartening I know, but you need to hang on in there.

It's definitely down to the luck of the draw. Dsis has progressive MS and emphysema. Her consultants from various departments all submitted comprehensive reports as dsis is really very disabled. In all there was over 500 pages of reports giving an accurate description of her needs and yet the nurse stated dsis walked into the consultation where she hasn't been able to walk for a couple of years along with other stuff that was completely false and she lost her award.
At Tribunal she didn't have to speak her award was reinstated and chair was really critical of DWP for acting on a report that bore no relation to the hundreds of pages of reports she had supplied/

Flesh - assessors should be brought to account for such blatant lying.

Should these assessments not be videoed and recorded?