Something really strange just happened

[InSwamTiddler]

I’ve NC for this as I’m not sure what to make of it and I’m really confused.
Back story - I was raised Catholic, but I’m atheist now. I work in a science based field and for as long as I can remember I have believed in the factual, empirically provable reality of things. I don’t believe in God or the afterlife, or ghosts / paranormal stuff.

Nearly 9 years ago my dad died. He died very suddenly and unexpectedly at a young age in my childhood family home.

Due to some circumstantial things, I’m currently living back in my family home.
My mum has mentioned a few times over the years that she’s felt my dad’s presence here and I’ve always been openly kind to her about it, but thinking “nope. Your imagination is going crazy because you’re grieving”. She’s mentioned she’s felt pressure on the bed as if someone has sat down on it next to her for example.

Anyway, this morning DP has left for work and I was still in bed. I was listening to him brushing his teeth, then popping the kettle on so I was definitely awake, but a little drowsy.

I felt him get back into bed with me and thought “what’s he doing?”... it’s not unusual for him to pop back into the bedroom and give me a hug or kiss before leaving the house.

I felt the heaviness of him pressed against my back and his arms wrapped around me. There was a heat between my shoulder blades I have never felt before but I wasn’t scared but I knew it wasn’t DP then. I heard the front door open so DP was leaving the house. Then my whole back went tingly a bit like pins and needles but not in an unpleasant way.

When it was happened I felt calm and warm but I’m freaking out now and can’t stop crying. Sounds silly but I feel like it may have been my dad.

I was 100% awake, not dreaming. I leant over and flicked the lamp on straight after.

Does anyone believe in this stuff? I never have but now I’m questioning everything.

Also, re She didn't say "lets have a big woo-in" she did say "Does anyone believe in this stuff? I never have but now I’m questioning everything"

Threads like this always do turn into a woo-in anyway! But there can be thoughtful discussion too and kindness.

some of the replies have gone well beyond that

Which? The debate has been robust on both sides.

I find the bloody mindedness amusing because since none of us know what happens when we die none of you can say for sure whether there is an afterlife! Anything’s possible.

I had a similar tingling sensation between my shoulder blades. I was at a Fright Night fundraiser with a medium. I went for a jokeand to raise money for the Anthony Nolan trust. I’ve never felt it before and never felt it since. Very odd.

Haven't RTFT but please check for carbon monoxide. Just to be on the safe side.

Also, re She didn't say "lets have a big woo-in" she did say "Does anyone believe in this stuff? I never have but now I’m questioning everything"

Er yes, that's what I quoted in my first post. That was my whole point. Surely the OP was asking for both points of view, which is certainly more helpful to someone who is unsure that just one.

It seems that "No can or does know for sure" is the only acceptable position on here. Sceptics and woo believers have no business arguing their point. In which case there is no discussion.

Or is it just the sceptics who need to shut up?

cba so we are agreed that lots of points of view are fine - I have said that and you have said that. What is not fine is saying or implying that another persons thoughts and feelings are "wrong" or it being implied or said that they are feable minded or mentally ill for having such thoughts or feelings... which I think goes well beyond "robust" and if you want examples of posts where this has happened you just need to read the whole thread, as the posts have been challenged at the time and reasons given.

*feeble minded

What is not fine is saying or implying that another persons thoughts and feelings are "wrong"

But that has happened on both sides. It will in any discussion.

and if you want examples of posts where this has happened you just need to read the whole thread The clue's in the name

“Calihummers”. I really don’t think that you should be describing other people’s deeply spiritual experiences as ‘that shit’ !!

Pam, it's my own take on supernatural explanations. I don't need them in my life. It's not a comment on what you experienced. If you want supernatural explanations, fine, go for it. My comment applied to my experiences, it was not a comment on anyone else's experiences.

Just as no one can understand these experiences unless they have had them for themselves, no one can possibly understand the nature of grief at the loss of a life partner until it happens. You DO look for relief from the pain and sometimes the brain DOES play tricks on you, but to have cold water poured on the comfort taken from these experiences is not nice.

We can't really understand the experience of others, no, because it is subjective. But you have no idea what I've been through in my life, what grief I've experienced, or how I've dealt with it. You really did take a glib comment about my feelings and seemed to feel it was directed personally at you and your experiences. If you want a support thread for supernatural experiences and you want to keep those who prefer natural explanations away from it, then start one and make it into a safe place for you. But the OP asked for opinions on either side.

And I'm not saying everything that's happened to anyone on here can be explained by sleep paralysis. I'm saying of the odd things I've experienced, sleep paralysis was one of the freakiest and most frightening things going. Knowing there was a logical, rational explanation really helped me. It's rare that I get it now and when I do I can deal with it because I have an explanation for it.

I think we can be haunted, but we're haunted not by ghosts but by the strength of our own feelings. You can't just lecture people on respecting your feelings, whilst telling them off for expressing theirs.

“But being told a rational explanation for their experience probably will.

I really cannot imagine why you would think that.”

So, something really scary happens to you and somebody says “don’t worry- here is what happened, it’s nothing to be scared of” You don’t think that would be a relief at all?

“It is not for you to tell other adults how to think and feel“

But it seems to be OK for you to!

To be fair Bert I think that poster was talking about the supposed "comfort" of having contact from a deceased love one, rather than a scary "woo" experience.

Though, frankly, for me I'd be massively creeped out if dead people were watching and contacting me, and much prefer the rational explanation approach!
And yes, before anyone asks, I have been bereaved and suffered grief before (who hasn't?), and also had some strange "unexplained" experiences.

hearts are scientists baffled though?

I mean I am a scientist...I do physics of life as it happens. I am frequently baffled by the results of experiments that aren't what we expected...and also by the very many ways it is possible to misinterpret simple instructions on how to wash glassware in a way that means you can actually use data you collect from samples put in it....

I'm not at all baffled by the emergence of that thing we think of as 'free will' or 'consciousness'. Its very clear to me that such phenomena would also be recreated in the cold dead atoms of a sufficiently powerful computer...so what's to be baffled about?

There are many things we don't have precise theories for yet. But that is different to thinking that there are things we will NEVER have theories for. There is no 'gap' that I am aware of, that scientists believe we will never be able to address.

There are also plenty of areas where science has no answers, because there is no evidence to answer for. It is not the job of science to come up with explanations for things that have not been demonstrated to exist. We have no theory for the evolution of unicorns, and no theory for the way in which homeopathy works. This is because homeopathy doesn't work and unicorns don't exist...not because 'scientists are baffled'.

big no worries :) I;ve been called worse!

big and to answer your point - I do find it absolutely amazing, and also brilliant and fascinating. I just don't find it baffling or in any sense something that will not one day be absolutely understood by science.

It blew my mind that tiny packets of evolving computer code would evolve a defence mechanism to deletion by the operating system. But it makes the point powerfully that you can do absolutely amazing things very very quickly using the straight forward Darwinian selection principles.

It also makes it clear that the distinction between plant/animal/human is not the clear cut one we would like to employ. We are extraordinarily human centred when we think about 'consciousness' in particular. Trees grow better in communities..they warn each other of intruders. They literally signal to each other when you walk into their space. Yet nobody ever sees ghost trees. In fact there is a direct correlation between the types of ghosts people see and the supposed hierarchy of 'consciousness' that society assumes exists.

humans, yes...dogs...cats..maybe....parrots...fish...reptiles.... plants...nope.

The thing is that science tells us that this hierarchy is nonsense. Cats and dogs aren't next in line at all. So if any of these sensed phenomena, like ghosts, were actually based on some hitherto not observed 'consciousness factor' then the ghosts wouldn't be the ones people tend to see. All this just provides yet more evidence that ghosts are generated within the mind of the humans experiencing them.

And incidentally, I am pretty sure I haven't said anything on this thread that anyone would find upsetting. I am happy to apologise if I have.

"To be fair Bert I think that poster was talking about the supposed "comfort" of having contact from a deceased love one, rather than a scary "woo" experience."

But the comment of mine partially quoted was in reference to scary experiences.

I know that Bert!
If you hadn't noticed I do agree with you.

bertrand you say But it seems to be OK for you to! but actually I didn't - I told you the social rule which is widely applied in the world (and not just on MN)

So, something really scary happens to you and somebody says “don’t worry- here is what happened, it’s nothing to be scared of” You don’t think that would be a relief at all? err no. Think of the roles in that scenario - one adult is taking the role of "I am more intelligent and know more than you" and the other you think should take the role of "Yes, you are"? Bonkers. But I will at some point find a way of getting you to understand this point. I am quite determined.

m3lon i think what some people refer to as paranormal and supernatural on this thread will in fact at some point be "science" - that is the point I was making earlier - you referred to intuition not being mysterious and i said that people who live day to day with esp and premonitions and so on and so forth don't find it mysterious at all.

cba2rtft i note what you say about the clue in your username - what was i thinking?! but in relation to both sides doing it I think it depends on context. I am not sure both sides have done it on this thread. If someone said to me something about politics which i didn't agree with, say, i'd be happy to tell them if i thought they were wrong and why and argue about it. if someone is talking about what they think about a spiritual belief and not specifically asking for the other person's thoughts (i know the op was) i think saying someone else saying they are "wrong" would be seen as a bit crass.

"Think of the roles in that scenario - one adult is taking the role of "I am more intelligent and know more than you" and the other you think should take the role of "Yes, you are""

Nothing about being more intelligent. Just knowing something that somebody else doesn't. No value judgements applied. There are things I know about and things I don't. Like most people. The paranormal is something I happen to know quite a bit about. Ditto cooking, horses and the works of Jane Austen. If anybody asks me about any of those things, I could probably give an informative answer. There is a list as long as my arm of things about which I know little or nothing, and I am happy to listen to other people who know about them. Nothing about being an adult or intelligence.

Just knowing something that somebody else doesn't

I don't want to rain on your parade, but you don't come across as knowing very much at all about the things being discussed on this thread, and my guess was that that you have not studied any branch of science or anything which could remotely be relevant to the "paranormal" such as psychology, at degree level or above, is that right?

This is going back to the social rules again - assuming you have superior knowledge which objectively you can't demonstrate and imposing it on others - and the trouble is you can cause offence because of it, without realising. If you say to someone (outside a professional relationship), unasked, "this is what you should do/think" you are basically saying to them "you cannot work this out for yourself" which is, basically, offensive.

Horses, Jane Austen - happy to take your word for it!

That's interesting, bigcuddly... Do you think we should react to and treat others' declared political and spiritual beliefs differently? The one requiring more sensitivity than the other?

I'm not saying I necessarily disagree (yet) just interested in the reasoning behind it.

I have all the spirituality of a paving slab, so it would be easier to upset/offend me through my political beliefs, than my spiritual. And wouldn't criticising someone's political beliefs and hoping to change them also be a declaration of "I'm cleverer than you?"

As is telling someone they have no right to an opinion on something if they haven't a degree in it!