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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

501 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 08/12/2018 10:06

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

OP posts:
WinterfellWench · 08/12/2018 13:38

Oh and don't bother @ ing me in, coz I have my notifications off anyway.

Oliversmumsarmy · 08/12/2018 13:39

Where did I say I was enraged.

Confused. Yes.

I don’t think that we were lacking in imagination. Foster/adopted children seems to be quite tame considering what we were coming up with.

Genevieva · 08/12/2018 13:41

I'm with @ViragoKnows. I reckon there would be just as much interest in an equivalent protection on an intriguing period in Chinese history. There are very few period dramas set outside Europe and the English-speaking world and it is hard to get access to those that are made. I have been wanting to watch the mixed-caste Afrikaans language film Krotoa for over a year and I haven't been able to find it anywhere or buy it on film. This is the trailer

riceuten · 08/12/2018 13:43

Can't say I am particularly bothered, and I don't think the same people whinged about black and asian people being played by white people for decades.

TacoLover · 08/12/2018 13:43

Poor argument, doesn't wash. Very disingenuous

Would you like to actually respond properly and tell me why? When people just disagree without actually offering a counter argument it looks like you don't have one at allConfused

Disingenuous:
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.

How exactly have I been disingenuous?

Very interesting how the focus is on me pointing out an inordinate amount of POC/mixed race people in adverts

Do you seriously think that POC are over-represented in adverts? Seriously? What would you like to happen then? Do you think then that there aren't enough white people in adverts already and you'd like to have less POC? Seriously?

Mallorie · 08/12/2018 13:55

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Mallorie · 08/12/2018 13:56

also, @mothertruck3r, carpets are Oriental, people are Asian. Referring to people as oriental is outdated and racist, now you know so you can stop.

honkersbonkers · 08/12/2018 14:00

Off you go then. I guess you were expecting everyone to agree with you. It's a cruel world.

user1499173618 · 08/12/2018 14:02

Not quite as silly as gender neutral casting of Shakespeare at the Globe!

ElsieCat · 08/12/2018 14:04

I thought the same about the rumour that Idris Elba would be cast as James Bond. I love IE and I'd happily see him cast in anything, but JB would just be wrong. The JB books and films all carry a backstory of JB's family history. To cast him suddenly as black would be to totally ignore the culture, class, national heritage and family backstory of the character as he was written and intended to be. James Bond is not like Doctor Who - he can't just keep reinventing him/herself as someone different altogether. It's all a bit Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower otherwise.

Greensleeves · 08/12/2018 14:10

Mary's mother was French (Mary of Guise)

indieshuffle · 08/12/2018 14:13

I am not keen at all, as it makes a nonsense of history. There are many other opportunities to make make a more ethnically diverse period dramas, say set in London or seaports, but real people and events should not be misrepresented. If life wasn't ethnically diverse then, then it wasn't.

If real history is misrepresented, then it doesn't give us the chance to talk about how things were and why, and how things are now and why.

Not everyone has enough knowledge of history to tell what is made up and if it started to happen a lot, then actually that would become a real problem in a fake news, fake history way.

Whitewashing is certainly a problem, but doing it in reverse is not the answer.

Bezalelle · 08/12/2018 14:16

Bloody hell, this has escalated!

CritEqual · 08/12/2018 14:18

All will be fine when we stop othering each other and ourselves. I'm going to ask a question: do we want multiculturalism to work? I mean really and truly? Because I don't think it's enough to slap different cultures and races in the same place and expect it to somehow magically work out.

It doesn't hurt to be more inclusive or at the very least sensitive to minorities, but on the other hand being so negative about white people all he time is alienating. Almost all none white cultures are way more ethnocentric than many western democratic countries, and I don't think there have been many historical attempts to forge forth a culture quite as diverse as we have now. I also do not think we would be as far along as we are with it if white peoples were as genuinely racist as some people claim.

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist nor that some people don't feel marginalised, but I think we have to place it all in context. There seems to be this expectation that racism is some sort of outlier and aberration. Note for the avoidance of doubt I am using the oringinal definition of racism not the modern recent one that ONLY white people can be racist. Racism is an extreme expression of natural in-group preferences, exacerbated by ignorance of the fact that we are all In truth a lot more similar than we are different.

charlestonchaplin · 08/12/2018 14:19

Elsiecat
To cast him suddenly as black would be to totally ignore the culture, class, national heritage and family backstory of the character.

Sometimes you don't even realise the gems that fall from your mouth. I don't why I clicked on this thread. I usually avoid them.

It's not the racism of the likes of Britain First that gets to me but the prejudice and stereotyping of respectable, professional, middle Britain. The type of people I hoped (in vain it seems) knew better.

KeepingEveryoneSafe · 08/12/2018 14:19

Have you seen JRM recently? Watch the new series of Viking's and yep I think he looks more like Henry more than ever there! 😆

peachgreen · 08/12/2018 14:21

my points are valid and true

Nope. They're racist and ignorant. HTH.

jophie80 · 08/12/2018 14:22

They have cast a white woman for a real life person who was black.
The recent film about the life of famous singer Johnny Cash, the woman playing his wife Vivian Cash (married 1957), was played by a white woman, even though his wife had actually been black, and they had 4 children together. Hollywood had decided to essentially erase her identity. Perhaps Hollywood believed that some of his country music fans would not have approved, since they likely had white supremacist linings.

In the 1960s, Johnny Cash was harassed and boycotted by some Southern fans in USA. “Johnny and I received death threats, and an already shameful situation was made infinitely worse,” recalled Vivian in her 2008 memoir.

www.vcstar.com/story/entertainment/2016/10/26/johnny-cashs-first-wife-tells-of-romance-heartbreak-june-carter-vivian-cash-/92772320/

jophie80 · 08/12/2018 14:29

Lets also not forget Jesus Christ, a middle eastern historical figure who by the Europeans is always represented as white, in films, in the church paintings and sculpture,

I think that is the best example I can think of, of misrepresentation of a person, his mother (Mary was not white), and his entire family.

southeastdweller · 08/12/2018 14:30

People made a big deal about Lucy Liu playing Watson in Elementary, years later no one bats an eyelid about it

She plays a fictional character in contemporary New York. It's hardly the same as Gemma Chan playing a real-life white woman in 16th century England.

Augusta2012 · 08/12/2018 14:31

There will be thousands of white baby Jesus this Christmas, Jesus could not have been white though.

There is black Jesus art. It even has a name. Cristo Negro. Black Jesus is common in South America and the Philippines. People tend to adjust Christ’s appearance to one they identify with.

But of course, posters won’t have a pop and them for doing that. Because it’s only fun having a pop at white people. And the same posters have the hypocrisy to call other people racist?

Augusta2012 · 08/12/2018 14:32

It’s pure propaganda. I’m amazed people don’t see through it.

MiseryLoves · 08/12/2018 14:39

I personally think that actual real people should be portrayed as close to their actual person as possible (Rosa parks should be a black female actress, Hitler should be a white male actor etc) but if it's a work of fiction then it doesn’t matter.

For instance, I remember the uproar when they cast a black actor as hermione in the cursed child. Race didn’t matter in that casting. When they cast Joseph fiennes as michael Jackson the uproar was justified.

jophie80 · 08/12/2018 14:42

There have been plenty of films, who have cast White actors in roles where the real life people (some still alive today) were African, Cuban, Mexican, Inuit, Asian etc. etc. etc.

Film: “A Mighty Heart” (2007) - Angelina Jolie played an Afro-Cuban woman, based on the real-life ordeal of journalist Mariane Pearl after her husband Daniel, a journalist for The Wall Street Journal, is kidnapped and later murdered by Pakistani militants.
Character’s Background: Mariane Pearl was born in France but she is of Afro-Cuban descent. She has naturally curly hair and a dark complexion.

Film: “21” (2008) the real-life blackjack team was of Asian descent but were portrayed in the film by white actors!! The film based on true events that follows the story of brilliant MIT students trained to become an expert card counter in blackjack.
Character’s Background: The protagonist of the film, Ben Campbell, is actually based on real-life MIT card counter and blackjack player Jeffrey Ma. Ma is an American of Chinese descent.

Film: “A Beautiful Mind” (2001) is a movie based on the life and career of brilliant mathematician John Nash.

Character’s Background: Alicia (born Alicia Lardé) is an MIT student who would later become John’s wife. The real Alicia was Salvadorian. Yet they cast a white woman - Jennifer Connelly - as his wife.

Film: “Argo” (2012) is based on the real-life work of top-level CIA operative Antonio J. Mendez, who helped orchestrate the rescue of six American hostages in Iran in 1980. The film won The Academy Award for Best Picture.
Character’s Background: Antonio J. Mendez was born in Nevada and is Mexican-American.

Film: “The 33” (2015) recounts the true story of the 33 Chilean miners who were trapped underground for 69 days.

Character’s Background: Maria Segovia was the real-life sister of one of the miner’s trapped underground. Above ground she was known for her efforts with “Campo Esperanza,” a makeshift tent community in the Atacama Desert where family members of the miners lived to stay close to their relatives. She is Chilean, with a dark brown complexion

Film: “Othello” (1965) is one of many film adaptations of Shakespeare’s tragedy of the same name.
Character’s Background: Othello is a general in the Venetian army. He is also a Christian Moor, which means he is generally depicted with a dark-complexion
.

Film: “The Lone Ranger” (2013) is a film-adaptation of the hit TV series of the same name. The movie was more centered on Native American warrior Tonto and his recollection of John Reid’s, aka the Lone Ranger, origin story.
Character’s Background: Tonto is a Native American warrior. In the 1950s TV series, he is portrayed by First Nation actor Jay Silverheels (also pictured above) who in real-life was a member of the Mohawk tribe.

Film: “Cleopatra” (1963) is a historical epic that follows Cleopatra’s passionate affairs with Julius Caesar and Marc Antony. Not to mention it’s one of the most extravagant and expensive movies ever made.
Character’s Background: Cleopatra was Egypt’s last independent pharaoh. She is widely believed to have been of Macedonian descent, though many modern-day scientists insist she also had African roots. That means that it is very unlikely that Cleopatra was as fair-skinned and light-eyed as Hollywood portrays her.

Augusta2012 · 08/12/2018 14:42

Vivian Cash was white. She had white parents and white ancestry. She viewed herself as white. But y’know, in PC world rewriting history and dictating what race dead people are without any evidence is just a ok.