To think that racial diversity in film casting has gone slightly bonkers...

[AngeloMysterioso]

When you have an Asian actress playing Bess of Hardwick?

I just can’t see why anyone thought it was appropriate to have such a prominent woman in English history being played by somebody who is Chinese- can you imagine the outcry if an important black woman was being played in a film by someone who isn’t black, or indeed a significant Asian character being played by a white woman? There’d be uproar, and rightly so. And yet, in the new Mary Queen of Scots film we have a white Englishwoman being played by Gemma Chan.

This Chinese author/blogger said pretty much the same thing, pointing out that when Ed Skrein was cast as a fictional Japanese character in Hellboy the public response was so furious that he ended up quitting. And Bess of Hardwick isn’t even a fictional character, she was a very real woman, an ancestor of our current Queen, whose life and legacy are quite remarkable.

I don’t want anyone to think that there is any racism behind this post at all. I think Gemma Chan is a fantastic actress, but I don’t know, there’s just something about it that reeks of tokenism.

" I am furious when in period dramas everyone has white matching teeth. Completely inaccurate and the should either use actors with missing and brown teeth or insist the actors wear false teeth."

Lol. They're not proper actors unless they agree to have all their teeth knocked out?
What about all the other problems people had in the past. Shall we cut actors' fingers off to show leprosy?
I think we have to accept that there are certain things from the past that we can't easily portray these day.
Height and health issues are two obviously.

e.g. Rhiannon and Jones are common Middle Eastern names incorporated into Welsh.

I've never heard of either of these names having a middle eastern origin, and I can't find anything on Google to support this. Jones simply means "son of John". Rhiannon is a name from Welsh mythology and is regarded as having a Celtic origin.

Yes, Milly - he was gorgeous apparently. But nothing whatsoever like JRM. Henry was always famous for his red hair, and they didn’t feel the need to address that.

I genuinely don’t think anyone would look at JRM and think “Perfect Henry 8”!

"Rhiannon and Jones are common Middle Eastern names incorporated into Welsh."

You're going to have to explain that a bit more. Jones is a name that is common in Wales, but is not a Welsh language name and was never 'incorporated into Welsh'. It was adopted by Welsh people when they were told by law to stop using patronymics and have family surnames. It comes from the English (and Christian) name John, like the kings called John and John the baptist.

Rhiannon is a name in Welsh myth Mabinogi. It might have come from the middle east, but it would have been a long time ago since the Mabinogi were written in the middle ages based on oral stories from much earlier.

There should be more scripts for and about PoC rather than shoe horning them in in a jarring fashion that nobody. "notices".

Exactly.

@NotDavidTennant the post is half right. Rihannon comes from Rihanna, which comes from Rayhan, which is a Quaranic name.

Jones comes from Jonas which also originates from the middle east.

It's the same as the arabic name for John is Yahya and the western equivalent for Jesus is Joshua.

"I genuinely don’t think anyone would look at JRM and think “Perfect Henry 8”!"

I read that as Jacob Rees-Mogg!

If race is part of the story then what OP is describing is a problem to me. That's why a white guy shouldn't play MLK. Otherwise, I don't see why it would matter.

The difficult part is when race is big part of the narrative but you have no supply of ppl of the right race. DD was in a school production of King and I. Probably entire cast were white (school is 97% white) so some in the cast put on spraytan & dyed hair black. Local newspaper gave them grief = blacking up. So school can never do a play again race is part of the narrative. Feels like an undesirable outcome to me, but heyho, maybe sensitivities will change in 200 yrs.

There's a massive difference between casting BAME actors as a white character and casting white actors as a BAME character.

1. BAME actors are underrepresented by a long way in the acting industry. There aren't enough parts for BAME actors - particularly in period pieces - and this is a way to redress that balance.
2. Because white is the "default", most scripts, BAME characters' ethnicity tends to be a vital part of their characterisation, whether fictional or historical (think MLK, Rosa Parks, Othello etc). Think of Shakespeare - Hamlet isn't racially coded in any way, so an actor of any ethnicity could play him (though surprise surprise we still have a lot more white Hamlets).

Once BAME actors - and parts for BAME actors - are no longer underrepresented, then we can have a conversation about whether BAME actors should be cast in traditionally or historically white roles. Unfortunately I doubt that will happen in our lifetimes. The theatre is further ahead than TV or film, but still has a way to go.

Him too, Gwen.

@lljkk Should a predominantly white school be staging a play where race and representation of race are so significant though? What perspective can they bring to it? There are plenty of plays they could choose that feature predominantly white-coded characters. And blacking up is never acceptable regardless.

@StoorieHoose Mary Queen of Scots was French maybe a Scottish person isn’t the right person to play her. I will be annoyed if Saoirse speak with a Scottish accent. Also Robert the Bruce lived most of his life in England so shouldn’t have a Scottish accent either.

"It is very different to a white person playing a character who is not because white people haven't been erased from stories and media for hundreds of years."

But so have Women. So the few Films etc that are about famous Women, should cast someone of the appropriate ethnic background.

Nothing to do with a Scots accent - did I say that in my post?

Hmm, I actually thought Abraham Lincoln was black for years after Arnold from Different Strokes played him in a school production and then was really quite confused by Amerian history as I was under the impression America had a black president in the 19th Century. (I was obviously a child at the time, but it didn't aid my understanding of the world).

@peachgreen but in 1600 England there were very few non-white people in England, that's a fact. If they were going to do a period piece on say, 1700s China, there would be no white roles as it was very uncommon for people to travel and move around in those times.

Mary Queen of Scots was French maybe a Scottish person isn’t the right person to play her.

No she was Scots. Born in Scotland. Daughter of the King of Scotland. She was a child bride sent to France. That doesn’t make her French.

And Mary was born in Scotland - that makes her Scottish not French does it not?

The film is so wildly innacurate it’s really just fiction using real names. The got the very basics of Mary and Elizabeth’s lives dead wrong, so a minor character not looking like they did in real life is a very small issue comparatively.

Bess has about three lines, none of which are in any way important. She might as well just be named ‘lady in waiting #3’ for all the attention she gets in this film, so it’s really not going to give anyone’s false impression of the real woman. It’s not going to give them any impression of her. The only people who leave the film remembering her name will be those who already know the history.

Also there were actually Asian and black members of the royal court during this time period, so it’s not anachronistic to have an Asian courtier featured, and that’s all Bess really is in this fictionalised version of events, a member of court whose given a few lines.

"Once BAME actors - and parts for BAME actors - are no longer underrepresented, then we can have a conversation about whether BAME actors should be cast in traditionally or historically white roles."

The issue with that though, so that Women, especially older, less attractive etc Women are also a victim of being underrepresented. As well as there being few good strong, manly Female roles.

If anything, start with Male roles and see how it goes.

Complain they've cast a tall person when history tells us they were short? Or they're too thin, or too blond or whatever?

Sometimes, yes. The key is context:

• 'Wrong' ethnicity is fine in a Shakespearean drama in a modern setting but daft in a gritty historical one.
• Tom Cruise playing the fictional Jack Reacher is stupid, because his height and ruggedness are an integral part of the character.
• A black James Bond 30 years ago would have been silly tokenism, because it would jar with the establishment nature of the character. These days it works fine and Idris should have been Bond- but ironically now his age is a bit of an issue.

I hate miscasting appearance when it's done badly because it takes you out of the narrative- but usually it doesn't matter.

Glenda Jackson played Lear.....That’s just as bad, IMHO.

See this is the type of stuff I don't get. What about Glenda Jackson being Queen Lear isn't believable or in keeping with the character?

I think it's quite obvious that your real concern isn't historical accuracy.

The problem with calling everything racism (or transphobia or misogyny or whatever) is that it cheapens the term and makes people ignore even the serious examples. Complaining about the veracity of a woman Doctor Who is obvious prejudice, complaining about accuracy in period pieces is not. It would be nice if we could give people we've never met a bit more tolerance.