Should some kind of army be compulsory for drop outs?

[Iaintdonenothing]

I'm currently sitting in the bath drinking a cider after one of those weeks.

I have a wonderful job that I get to interact with lots of teenagers who range from year 11 and those in college. Each term I probably see say 30-40 different schools/colleges from those failing ofstead to 20k fees. I won't go into what my job entails but it's hands on and on an extra curricular basis - for some young people it's optional and for some (usually btec) it forms part of their course.

There's been a couple of encounters this term from (mainly) btec colleges that has got me wondering if what's the point? Obviously due to the government wanting young people to stay in education until 18 some feel forced to do college/apprenticeships and some may do well just going out into the world at 16. But I'm actually feeling worried about these kids. They have zero respect, zero motivation, zero aspiration, zero life skills and generally walk around like they're untouchable. When I first go into these colleges I see facilities better than the fee paying schools, resources that I would have loved to have used at school and tutors who are passionate for their subjects. It's not all kids on these courses who think this way, but it's demotivating for those who actually want to get the skills for their course, who want to do well and actually signed up because they wanted to not because they see level two media as a lark for two years. Unless kids are actually violent or criminal on site it's unlikely they're removed from these courses and if they are removed they doss at home until the new September intake. Its actually heart breaking to see kids who want to do well/trying/getting frustrated with those who literally don't care.

Its not these kids fault for having such a bad attitude to life but it's generational - parents don't care, they don't care so what's their future kids future going to look like? My uncle went to borstall(?) Which was state boarding school for real naughty kids/kids contact with the law and he says it was the best thing for him.

Surely something has to be done to try to get through to these kids? Talking to my colleagues if the kids had some kind of motivation that if they got kicked out of college/wasn't on a placement they had to move away to some kind of pass out army camp they would stop feeling so invincible and get some life skills?

Well, I don’t think an army style school/camp is the solution - I can’t see that winning any votes!!!

But yes, there are lots of teens who have no aspiration or respect for anything. You can’t change parents but you could have better, early intervention in primary school, before it’s too late.

I don't think early intervention in school would come close to making a difference. The biggest influence is home life and attitudes. I don't think the army as in active service would be the right thing but some kids would benefit from stricter rules and consequences.

Absolutely OP - although I doubt you'll get much support on here!

Anyone watch that recent programme about WW2 where they remastered the film footage with colour?
Really got to me. Brought it to life.
One of the things it highlighted was that there was a common goal, and young lads of 14 plus wanted to join a cause. They had positive ideals and they were brave.
Kids today are lost. I’m not saying we need another war (god forbid) but I sometimes think we could do with some of that mentality.
What’s going on with gangs, stabbing etc?

Maybe rather than training the arseholes to kill people I'd suggest mandatory project-based community work. E.g. building houses for the homeless, playgrounds for kids, redeveloping and enhancing communal spaces in their neighbourhoods.

Practical skills
Goal focused for a sense of achievement
Career options with experience on the CV
Benefits for all local people
Not brutalising young people with a military regimen that some of them will be entirely unsuited for

Absolutely not, no one should be forced to join the military and the military should not be seen as a punishment.

Compulsory National Service maybe but how would that be enforced?

Are you suggesting some form of slavery?

A lot of borstals didn't work out so great. A lot of abuse etc. Your uncle was lucky. A lot more weren't.

Absolutely not, no one should be forced to join the military and the military should not be seen as a punishment.

Compulsory National Service maybe but how would that be enforced?

Um, National Service is the military.

Lovingbenidorm

Nice to know you were paying attention. That would be WW1.

Bridgetriley

National service does not necessarily mean military. The men who served down the mines in WW2 might be offended at that.

t'

Friend of mine lives in a place where national service is compulsory.
His (v bright daughter) is learning so much in terms of teaching , management, organisation etc. His son (academically struggled) is having a much more age appropriate and rewarding literacy and numeracy teaching experience. Obviously both have to do some military training, but aside from that, the emphasis is very much in learning to equip them with skills after the conscription finishes. I was never a fan, but having sen it in practice, it's bit revelatory (setting aside my concerns).

This is such an interesting thread!

I work in primary schools, and I PROMISE we're picking up those same kids at our stage before they get to you

I know what you mean by some sort of military service, and I know what your'e getting at, but I think you're wrong.

I think the solution is early intervention (brought in by Nu Labour, but not properly funded and easily scrapped by later governments).

I think the problem is institutionalised.

The important thing is to break the cycle and raise expectations.

This is a REALLY interesting topic. Thankyou for raising it.

Yes my family talk about this often! Send them to camp/cadet training / sailing or so on. Would teach them so many skills and how to behave and interact with others in a more productive and healthy manner.

They need to be taken away from dysfunctional homes/values where the cycle is just continuing. As a PP says, that is the biggest problem facing these kids. Teachers and external agencies can only do so much. Bad parenting has so much to answer for.

Perhaps an argument could be made for some sort of community work in return for benefits but it would have to be at a reasonable hourly rate
I just don't think any kind of conscription is going to fly these days it's just 2 out of step with modern times

We have a professional army in this country that is entirely made up of the willing and is respected the world over. They shouldn't be diluted by taking on the mob you describe.

I do agree that what they need is discipline. And to understand some long-forgotten things like duty, honour and responsibility. But the army is not there to sweep up the mess left by parents or the unwillingness of individuals to behave decently.

VeniVidiWeeWee thank you so very much for pointing out my mistake, it really means a lot to me. Really

Totally agree.

A lot of the kids on probation could have used a stint in the military. They were, in fact, just bored.

"Perhaps an argument could be made for some sort of community work in return for benefits"

No it really coundn't. We can afford to run the Country as having the billions to leave the EU shows. So we could create paid work.

If every working class kid had aspiration, there be a hell of a lot of disappointed young people about.

Mind you, they might riot and we'd all get a voice.

Things started to break down in the 70's, when Thatcher declared that there was no society only individuals.

I dont like Tony Blair, but he bought in a lot of good stuff, to combat deprivation. Parental and Economic.

We need an acknowledgement of how shit life is for whole sections of our Society, but that certainly won't happen with a Tory Government.

Let's not pretend that there's jobs, housing etc for everyone of those Teens, because there isn't. The difference in Min wage/HB/UC depending on age is a national disgrace.

The lack of respect is a different matter.

"And to understand some long-forgotten things like duty, honour and responsibility."

I know, the duty to house/feed its people has gone in this Country. The responsibility of looking after Society's most vulnerable. Honouring the promises made and the requests of the masses.

It's a gone.

I don't think it is a good idea to give a boy with "zero respect" a gun.

Make them do something useful, sure. You can even have military-like discipline.

But don't give them guns. That would be stupid.

@Lovingbenidorm

I think you answered your own question. Kids still want to belong to a group, to have a common purpose, to have a role.

We failed them, so the gangs give them that.

This has been discussed many times. The solution was to raise the leaving age to 18 - which I assume is working for more than not working.

I think some sort of training would be beneficial especially for those who will never leave the same estate their grandparents were born on.

There's a whole world and we should train them and show them something different something achievealbe - even charity work abroad would be enlightening. Better than spending millions in overseas aid we could contribute in Man power (or lady power)

It doesn't have to be army - but certainly how to look after themselves and take some social responsibility

Joining the military is an honour and definitely shouldn’t be forced upon people. Tbh army style boot camp isn’t going to help kids when the motivation to get through it is graduating & serving at the end! What are the kids going to be motivated by?

The biggest failure is that the youth service has been taken out of service. When I was at school we had a youth club that was attached to the school I went to, it was open during the day for unemployed teenagers, there were things to do, the youth workers often befriended & became mentors to the kids that went, it was open 5 nights a week for kids from 14 upwards, had a disco, a coffee bar, pool, snooker & sports, ran trips & holidays, had visits from the council housing service, ran a job club with help to apply for jobs, taught skills like painting & cooking, money management, helped with applying for benefits, ran sessions for teenage mums, girls only sessions where the girls could do things that usually only boys got a chance to do like off road motorbiking, outdoor pursuits, football. It was somewhere to go instead of hanging round the streets getting into trouble. The youth workers helped kids who were in trouble, guided them if they weren't getting guidance at home, listened if you needed someone to talk to. That's what we need to stop the gang culture now, someone to put kids on the right path & keep an eye out to stop them slipping through the net to the wrong side of the law.

The army is not a rehabilitation programme or to provide a sop for Daily Mail readers' belief that Something Must be Done.

As for boot camp and military discipline type punishment, the Tories tried this with the 'Short Sharp Shock' in the early 80s. It failed miserably.