Should some kind of army be compulsory for drop outs?

[Iaintdonenothing]

I'm currently sitting in the bath drinking a cider after one of those weeks.

I have a wonderful job that I get to interact with lots of teenagers who range from year 11 and those in college. Each term I probably see say 30-40 different schools/colleges from those failing ofstead to 20k fees. I won't go into what my job entails but it's hands on and on an extra curricular basis - for some young people it's optional and for some (usually btec) it forms part of their course.

There's been a couple of encounters this term from (mainly) btec colleges that has got me wondering if what's the point? Obviously due to the government wanting young people to stay in education until 18 some feel forced to do college/apprenticeships and some may do well just going out into the world at 16. But I'm actually feeling worried about these kids. They have zero respect, zero motivation, zero aspiration, zero life skills and generally walk around like they're untouchable. When I first go into these colleges I see facilities better than the fee paying schools, resources that I would have loved to have used at school and tutors who are passionate for their subjects. It's not all kids on these courses who think this way, but it's demotivating for those who actually want to get the skills for their course, who want to do well and actually signed up because they wanted to not because they see level two media as a lark for two years. Unless kids are actually violent or criminal on site it's unlikely they're removed from these courses and if they are removed they doss at home until the new September intake. Its actually heart breaking to see kids who want to do well/trying/getting frustrated with those who literally don't care.

Its not these kids fault for having such a bad attitude to life but it's generational - parents don't care, they don't care so what's their future kids future going to look like? My uncle went to borstall(?) Which was state boarding school for real naughty kids/kids contact with the law and he says it was the best thing for him.

Surely something has to be done to try to get through to these kids? Talking to my colleagues if the kids had some kind of motivation that if they got kicked out of college/wasn't on a placement they had to move away to some kind of pass out army camp they would stop feeling so invincible and get some life skills?

Fab idea. (Please feel free to read lots of sarcasm there)

Punishment for being poor with no options and, let's face it, it's the children of poor disenfranchised families that you are mostly referring to.

Punishment where no crime has been committed, bar offending middle class sensibilities.

There is no point in aspirations that result in a minimum wage zero hours contract that won't afford to house you and feed you... if you're lucky. Aspirations that result in constant failure lead to depression and severe anger.

I personally wouldn't want to train really fucking angry people how to kill.

Many people are not allowed aspirations, too damaging, just have to put your head down and try to survive by fair means or foul.

This problem is I believe the price still being paid for the destruction of industry by Thatcher. A social class was created where not working became normal and accepted, we now have generations who have never know working parents. The loss of ambition and motivation persists . Until the destruction of industry most people had ambition to work. Look at the controversial studies carried out by Charles Murray into 'social underclass'.

I think some sort of national service should be made compulsory for all 18 years olds actually. They should be given the choice of army or similar, or more community based stuff-care work for example (they can't be worse than the current care staff we have now-bar a few notable exceptions the standard isn't great). It would prepare kids for work or uni. Give them a bit of social conscience, build confidence and life experience, and solve the crisis in social Care staffing in one go.
It would also hopefully give kids that don't have it from
Home a bit of support and focus...and they should also be paid a bit to do it (minimum
Wage but that's also a learning experience-lots of need a reality check re starting from the bottom
Of the career ladder)
A year out of your life wouldn't kill anyone-they can go on to do whatever they were planning to do still a year afterwards.
I don't agree with compulsory military service but I do think some sort of service is a good idea.

It wouldn't be punishment for the poor as it would be for everyone regardless of background. Perhaps it would even act as a social leveller really? Might be an eye opener for the yahs to be have to work alongside the kids from poorer backgrounds and realise that they are actually people and as valuable as each other.

Schools can only do so much, it's the role models children have at home that they tend to follow.

I think there should be a scheme in place for both school leavers who don't go on to further education be it national service, community help, workfare etc. If it had the positive impact you'd expect, it could be extended to those who missed out at school age but who still aren't working and contributing.

A friend of mine used to run a project teaching this type of kid to sail. He started late primary and worked with kids through secondary school. There were similar ones using riding, kayaking/outdoor skills.

I think army joining age is too late.

I also think it would be reprehensible to force someone already disadvantaged into a situation were they might have to kill people. On so many levels.

Oh and the families of people with no-one working for generations is a myth.

Link to study by Joseph Rowentree Foundation

And there is something really off about drinking cider in bath whilst dreaming up ways to send disadvantaged kids off to kill people in foreign climes, “for their own good”.

Are you a general in WW1? Over the top boys, for King and Country...

I’m sure there was some artistic and cultural reaction to that kind of attitude that put it better than I have.

Jesus wept.

I don’t think we should be sending naughty kids out to fight in wars for us. There needs to be earlier intervention to stop kids falling into the trap of low aspirations and a life on benefits.
No child dreams of this when they are young what happens in the intervening time to make them lose faith in themselves.
More needs to be done for children who don’t have the skills or support at home to get the gold standard of 5 good GCSEs plus maths and English. Apprenticeships were a good idea but have been poorly rolled out and there are not enough available.
Apart fron anything else this idea massively undermines the Army which is a professional organisation not a home for drop outs.

There is already the National Citizen Scheme (I forget it's proper name) but unfortunately I think it's poorly promoted (many people have never heard of it) and I think the fact it's for 16-18 year olds is too late. It should be from age 12.

I think raising the compulsory education age to 18 was a bad move. Some people don't want to learn.

DP is military. The military do not want hundreds of thousands badly behaving teenagers.

There is nowhere to put them, no money to fund them and not enough personnel to train them. It wouldn’t work.

I don't see why the military should be made to step up for parental failings, they've got a job to do without having to be a social project too.

The military's job is to project and apply force wherever the government tells it to.

It happens to be the biggest provider of adult education in the country, but its role is not to deal with drop outs.

If you want more interventions to deal with 'drop outs' then fine, laudable etc. If you want to make it both compulsory and strict, I wouldn't agree with you, but can see what you mean. Suggesting something thwouid be highly detrimental to both the Armed Forces and possibly many of the young people themselves leaves me cold.

Yanbu.
Where I am, many 6th formers attend because their parents pressure them to, but all they actually do is deal drugs, smoke weed or stab each other. I'm not sure how much study goes on.
I also note that from September to December there are hordes of students walking along my street. Come Jan, it thins right out. Drop outs?
I feel for those who want to learn being surrounded by nonsense that nobody can control or punish.
But it starts in earnest in high school unfortunately.
Boot camp all the way!

My DP has just landed an apprenticeship, (were 21) and it's a really really good opportunity and very well paid. Engineering focused. The big wigs are so excited to have these brand new engineers and see them as the future. Narrowed it down from 2000 candidates to 12. 2 of the boys on his course are 17, and they have to spend 1 day a week in college where these 2 lads piss about at the back of the class. They don't know how lucky they are to have this opportunity and their college tutor pulled them to the side saying they either sort their shit out or piss off out his class, this is not like college when you're fresh out of school and you have to get your arse in gear and WANT to learn. The other apprentices are actually embarrassed by their behaviour.
I think they just don't have the social skills needed to take it seriously, or they don't care. I think they probably needed a kick up the bum a long time ago.

OP - if you haven't ever done so, I really recommend you watch 'The National Education Service episode of Yes Prime Minister

The armed forces is a very good option for young people who haven't had the home support to succeed in education but have the drive to improve themselves. Dd has friends at Harrogate who are studying for GCSEs retakes alongside their military training, another friend did the RAF route and earned his BTEC in something (equivalent to A's at A Level). But you need a good attitude and decent fitness to succeed otherwise you won't get through the interview!

Dd is in the Navy though a different pathway (technical officer) so a bit different, university for her, but I'm very impressed by the education element.

What we really need is early intervention long before age 16 to ensure these kids don't drop out - the use of boarding schools could be an option, cheaper than care proceedings and prison later on! In most cases you can see which kids will drop out still at primary from my experience.

Unpopular opinion but I'm actually a huge supporter of compulsory national service being brought back for everybody. I think the benefits far out way the negatives, especially with the younger generation who seem to be lacking in real direction and reality of what actual hardship is.

Knittedjest

And what about the armed forces who don't want to work with disgruntled youths? My husband certainly does not want to have to train and work alongside state ordered difficult people, it would be dangerous for one thing, it annoys me the way people undervalue the work the armed forces do as if they have nothing better to do. Look at military culture and you'll see if someone doesn't want to be "broken in" they won't. They'd just have to fail a drug test and they'd be out. There's more to the job than shouting you know. This isn't 1940, the work culture in the military is very different, people need to take their Rose tinted glasses off.

Tbh i have 4 very different children. My ds1 couldnt not be bothered with school despite us doing everything to try, and trying to explain to him about his future etc but he decided to drop out of college and started working full time, this gave him his wake up call, as in how much things cost etc and now he has found his place he has worked his way up in the job he does and has ambition to be a manager of his own pub some day. Now dd1 is the complete opposite was commited to her studies worked hard, is now at college and has clear goals and targets, and is a model pupil and mature for her age, she gets very frustrated with some of the kids on her course who arent bothered, dont turn up to placements, dont do the work, sit giggling at things they shouldnt be laughing at, they had a lesson about child abuse and some of the girls found it funny!!
Her end goal is uni and teaching.
Ds2 not bothered, i had his older brother come have a word with him last night so i hope it works, tried everything else. Dd2 great at practical things but struggles academically due to learning disabilities and dyslexia, but she does try. Cooking, problem solving, puzzles, building shes brilliant at so we are using that to help her build confidence and trying to build on things she is good at.
Its not always down to parents not doing the right things.
But i do agree unless they are in training and actually engaging or in full time paid work then something does need to be done. Im not sure what but forcing them into college, apprenticeships or the army i dont think is the answer.
I think the main thing is helping them find their place, what do they enjoy, can we build on it? 16 year olds dont always know what they want to do? That is certainly the case for ds2..doesnt have a clue.

For the person up thread that suggested these teens should do voluntry care work.....
How about giving care workers more respect, pay and sensible contracts and then the 16 year olds could go to college and gain the relevant qualifications and skills to do this very important job - which can be a job for life if you choose it to be.
Would you like your elderly vunrable relatives cared for a person with training and qualifications or an unqualified teen?