Why are there so many crap employers?

[GaryBaldbiscuit]

I have two jobs, the other job, smaller, is quite badly run, the boss is mean as are her minions.
My other job has quite a good team and the smaller job, a private business, could learn from them. I went to a meeting recently with the smaller job, most employees there new, high turnover of staff.

I discovered the fact that employers mainly want to be appreciated in their work when it comes down to it.
I wish the smaller job could learn from this.
Hold me back from telling them, or should i?

I've also seen colleagues who have really given their all to their work and still been treated like shit by their employers. It makes me cynical.

1. Lack of training of managers
2. More people than there are jobs creates a disposable workforce and thus an inbalance of power
3. The workplace culture that this creates.
4. Politics. Conservatives like small govt so let businesses do pretty much whatever they like. As pp said it will get worse after Brexit
5. Unions have little power to change this
6. Profit and short term thinking, despite a huge amount of evidence that happy well treated people are more productive
7. Ignorance of employment rights, not knowing how to challenge employerd
8. This may get your backs up but hear me out: British culture. It's very confrontational and conflict resolution is poor. There is thread after thread on here about people not knowing how to confront, getting upset because their passive agressive hints arent picked up on. Work culture - I read a thread on here today from someone who hasnt been granted her holiday for 2 years! The employers think they own their employees. Presenteeism plays a big role. Private lives mixed with work colleagues etc. I've lived elsewhere for 10 years now and the stuff I read on here is mind boggling.

I work for a large company, and am one of a 6 managers in my department, we really try to treat people fairly and in a way that we’d want to be treated ourselves. We’ve read an article on how people leave ‘managers’ not jobs and it’s true. We’re really proud of the fact that the only people leaving our department (most staying with the company) are ones being promoted. And what’s really good (but also not good) is the fact 3 of them want to come back.
You don’t really get line management training apart from on employment law so I’ve learnt from line managers that did stuff I hated. So I’m happy to let people work from home when they need to, if a family member has gone to hospital I’ll push them out of the door saying work is not important, if they’re ill- they’re ill and shouldn’t be working. I find treating people like adults that can prioritise what needs to be done works and my team are really loyal and hard working.

The company I work for (engineering) has thrived on the cheap labour. Other engineering firms I know now only recruit from agencies, the agency worker is always dropped regardless how good they are so the employer doesn't have to pay more.
In my own personal view recruitment agencies have done more damage to the labour market than migrants ever did. Previous to engineering I worked in construction (joiner) but was forced out by cheap foreign labour so took a career change into engineering Basically out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I sincerely hope Brexit destroys this country, the gulf between the haves and have nots is truly repulsive.
I'd like to see this country wiped clean and dead wood, benefit cheats found out. The private sector and public sector is as different as chalk and cheese.

No matter how much people have, they just want more...and more....AND MORE!! And they don't give two shits that their relentless greed utterly destroys others lives.

What a vile narcissistic nation we've become.

Interesting that most posters suggest lack of training is a reason for crap bosses, in my experience it can be quite the opposite. The worst managers tend to be trained to the hilt degree upon degree but no experience of people, my favourite bosses have all worked their way up having been genuinely good at their job and mostly have a good understanding of all parts of the business.

Bit of a vague question really. Small businesses don't necessarily have the same scope for career progression as larger ones, so a high turnover of staff isn't necessarily a negative. For example, DP and I run a shop and employ 2 to 3 members of staff at a time. We basically need part time staff to work the counter and we do all the additional behind the scenes work. We've had one member of staff stay with us for 6 years but generally we hire students who stay for a year or so at a time then they move onto better things.

Unfortunately, a capitalist society does sort of dictate a business needs to turn a profit to survive. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't all go to the business owner. Business rates are prohibitive for companies wanting to expand beyond a certain size (and create more jobs for people). Don't even get me started on HMRC and the number of hoops they want you to jump through!

^^
This with bells on.

The worst managers tend to be trained to the hilt degree upon degree but no experience of people Degrees are the type of training people are talking about.

A friend of mine was made dept head - she didn't want the job, but there was no one else to do it - she was the longest consultant qualified, she had no clue how to manage people and it was making her truly miserable but it was NHS and investing in training people to to manage people isn't their top priority. She loved her job dealing with patients but management was not something she ever wanted to do and she left the hospital to get back to helping patients in another hospital.

I'd never work for a small family business again after my last few experiences. Ultimately lines get blurred and often a lot of pressure is put on you. It feels ridiculous to hear how the company is struggling to pay the wage bill when you know the owners have 4 or 5 holidays a year. One of the small firms I worked for regularly broke employment law as well.

I do agree there are rubbish employees too, people who are unreliable and take the piss and leave you in the lurch. But equally after my last job (where I never had an unplanned day off in two years and bent over backwards for the company), in the future I will look after myself first and not be guilted into doing more than is sustainable. Ultimately, that company lost a good employee because I got burned out - in the year since I left they are on the third person doing my same job. No doubt they would say some of them were crap employees, but I think it's probably at least 50:50.

As far as I know there’s an intention to ‘reshape’ employment law since we wont be bound by E.U. laws anymore
So less holiday/maternity/employee rights/ etc etc

Yep, that's the plan. When various leading Brexiters are talking about increased labour force flexibility etc, that's what they mean.

Some people have been lulled into a false sense of security because a lot of our laws giving rights to employees are domestic rather than EU anyway. But EU law, which we're currently bound by, sets out minimum standards we can't go below. If we stop being bound by that, there's nothing to prevent us from doing away with some of the provisions, and unfortunately that's the wing of the Tory party that the Brexit vote has benefitted. It's also why good jobs Brexit is nonsense.

I have to disagree that it’s an employers market - far from it, I could employ 30 today if they had the right skill set and it’s not a difficult one to get/have - you need to skill up and keep retraining and invest in yourself

Out of interest what is that 5fivestar?

I also worked for a small company whose finance director said to me once that small business's couldn't afford to may minimum wage which really pissed me off . This was a company that had grown a lot over the years but extremely penny pincher to staff if they could deduct pay not pay bonus they would , they forgot I worked in finance dept so I saw the turnover so I know that they definitely could afford to pay minimum wage and some . A lot of the staff had worked for years when it was starting up but as it was doing well forgot that, just want to hold onto the profits never mind the staff that help them get the profits . Just pure greed !!

I think it is the way most workplaces are structured that causes issues. As people climb the career ladder they are often given a team to manage with that progression which is not how it should be. No account is often taken of their ability to lead and manage others, the only focus often is how good they are at their individual job.

I think it is the way most workplaces are structured that causes issues. As people climb the career ladder they are often given a team to manage with that progression which is not how it should be. No account is often taken of their ability to lead and manage others, the only focus often is how good they are at their individual job.

That's exactly how it was for me. I knew my job as company accountant inside out when it was a relatively small firm and my dept was just me and a part time book-keeper. It grew very fast and my dept grew and grew until I had a team of 8 in my accounts dept including another qualified accountant. But I had no experience of managing a team and didn't get any training either. Rather than muddle through being a crap boss, I just handed in my notice. Great shame really as I knew the company finances and its systems like the back of my hand but I wanted to be an accountant, not a manager.

Employment laws were hard won by Trade Unions. No employer gave paid holidays sick pay etc. They were won.

With the weakening of trade unions employees have lost power. The places that still have good rights, pensions, working hours tend to be unionised.

You have to fight for your rights and the British public have voted them away and now they are doing it again with Brexit.

Employment laws were hard won by Trade Unions. No employer gave paid holidays sick pay etc. They were won.

History not your strong point is it? There were lots of employers who provided good "benefits" to their workforces long before union involvement. Particularly Quaker employers. The likes of Cadbury, Rowntree etc provided housing, healthcare, amenities etc. There were even convalescence homes provided by employers for their employees who became ill. Many mill owners did the same, i.e. provide public parks, pay for hospitals, etc. Yes, of course, there were crap employers as well, but to say "no employers" is simply untrue.

History not my strong point?

Did the Quakers provide paid sick leave? Did they fuck. Look at the examples I gave. Be specific.

"Many mill owners" you say and then claim history is not my strong point. Good grief. "Lots of employers who provided good benefits" total nonsense. Read a bit of Engles research, if you think "lots" of mill owners looked after their employees.

Some mill owners. New Lanarkshire was the exception not the rule by a very, very big margin and no sick pay and no paid holidays. Look at the specific examples.

The Quaker's and Robert Owen demonstrated that looking after employers benefited the employer but they changed no laws. These employers were very much the exception.

Workers rights were hard won. They were hard won by trade unionists fighting for them. Individual men and women suffering hardship to gain rights and benefits. As a generation we are pissing them away. Rights that were normal 30 years ago are disappearing. We need to hold the line, organise and stop our rights being eroded for the sake of the next generation.

Or we can wring our hands and say "not all employers..." and wait for them to shaft us some more.

Can't really generalise but my worst employer by far was a very large service provider. Paying lip service to all the discrimination and disciplinary procedures you can ever dream up, but far too fond of employing people as "managers" who couldn't even manage to be polite to their own staff. The staff at the bottom of the heap, usually call centre/customer service roles, were almost all minimum wage. In a stressful job like that, you really do need managers who can motivate their staff, and not constantly pick on them every time they dare to smile. Hardly surprising they have a high turnover. HR were pretty rubbish too, and wouldn't pursue a complaint of bullying because the bully was Asian and they were terrified it would be turned into an accusation of racial harassment.

I worked for a small family-run business for a while, which was actually very enjoyable as the company was small enough to let me learn a lot of different skills (no clear job role, just "office admin") After a year or so it was obvious they were losing money, and it was also pretty obvious that the owners were taking out too much. They employed a full-time accountant who told them that, and he made me redundant. He earned 4 times what I did. The company folded a year later.

I'm currently watching The Good Wife and am beyond thankful that I don't have to earn a living in the US (thank you trade union movement and EU).

It is definitely true that there are some very poor employers, but on the whole workers in UK have good protections.

Unfortunately,.the poor ones are scared (threatened?) because so many employees are out to defraud them and/or collect a wage for doing very little. We all know people who have stolen from their employer or just turn up to collect their pay without contributing much.

badbadbunny and OliviaStabler

Your point about career progression resonated with me. 25 years ago I used to work in software development, and it was usually the best programmers who were made team leaders then project managers. Back then, the best programmers were probably those who'd now be regarded as on the autistic spectrum. Certainly most of the managers I encountered just seemed totally unsuited to management roles. It took a very brave HR dept to look at the person first, not their technical expertise, when recruiting for the more senior roles. I would like to think things have changed since, but somehow I doubt it.

Management skills - not just people management but broader management too - tend to be poorer in Britain than in other comparable economies, and there’s quite a bit of evidence that there is a link between management training and qualifications and productivity.

Those on this thread commenting about crap employees - interesting to think about the impact of those employees being managed more effectively.

I worked at one place for over 10 years, it was family run and in an industry notorious for a high turnover of staff yet I was one of the newer members of staff. They treated us with value knowing that if we loved our jobs and being at work then we would go the extra mile for our customers and they were right. And ultimately the company would benefit. We got reasonable pay but plenty of benefits that just made us feel appreciated. Random gifts to all staff, there was never any expectation because genuinely staff were really happy, plenty of give and take on both sides

Then the last member of the family retired who wanted to be involved in what was a very male industry so it was sold. The new owner couldn't have cared less, holiday entitlement was cut and gradually staff were made to feel unwanted so a lot of us left because we were deliberately had our working lives made a misery. They wanted all old staff to leave so they could employ cheaper staff. Upshot is staff are not staying and they are having a high turnover. Problems arise because people don't know their jobs as thoroughly as long term staff do so mistakes are affecting the bottom line profit so is all the recruitment fees and training for new staff. I'm sad the company changed hands because I'd have stayed there till I retired but I couldn't work in the new environment, it was awful. I'm nearly as happy in another job but I will never be as happy as I was before