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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Theresa May - TV debate- waste of time

73 replies

Theworldisfullofgs · 29/11/2018 11:47

AIBU in thinking this will be a waste of time. Currently both main political parties still arguing about their version of brexit. So all just semantics anyway
And
Most importantly Theresa May NEVER answers a direct question and is always specifically unspecified. So actually what's the point?

OP posts:
Isitsixoclockalready · 29/11/2018 18:54

badlydrawnperson - you just never know, I wouldn't put anything past her although I'm optimistic that, as Amber Rudd said, parliament wouldn't allow a no deal to happen.

I'm just scratching around for a good reason for her going up against someone who doesn't have a deal on the table unless she's just so desperate that she thinks that it's at least worth a crack at trying to persuade Labour MPs to back her. I guess that at this stage, anything is worth a try to her. As much as Corbyn isn't the most adept at these kind of things (although his quip at PMQs that as it's the only deal on the table it could just as much be seen as the worst deal as the best deal), he does have plenty of potential weapons in his armoury over brexit.

bellinisurge · 29/11/2018 18:55

She's pulling out as many stops as she has in her. She didn't do any of this in the general election and she got punished for it.
She wants to sell this deal over the heads of MPs so that their constituents put pressure on them to accept it.
And she doesn't want the ERG to get all the sound bites and the air time.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 29/11/2018 19:49

It will be interesting watching a leaver (Corbyn) arguing to remain and a remainer (May) arguing to leave.

I think it would be pretty useful because we know what Mays deal is but we need to find out what Corbyns deal would be. So far all he says is lets bring down the government then you can have your cake and eat it. We need some answers from Labour.

SillySallySingsSongs · 29/11/2018 19:51

he does have plenty of potential weapons in his armoury over brexit.

I don't think he does tbh. What is Labours plan? They don't appear to have one.

TheToldYouSoDance · 29/11/2018 19:52

What’s the point in debating now when we won’t get a say on what’s being debated.

DogInATent · 29/11/2018 20:06

All this makes we wish a third party would emerge that pulled the more sensible centrist elements from both of the main parties. It only needs to offer two things:

  1. Stop Brexit
  2. Electoral reform

The first, because it's clearly a bad idea and nowhere near as simple or beneficial as promised.

The second, because tribal politics have got us into this rut and I see no way out of the current situation where Torys and Labour vie to be the most extreme whilst sticking to out-of-date notions of Left and Right. Yes, it will result in coalitions - but that means decisions will be have to be made by agreement and not disagreement. And we might get some new ideas every once in a while from a Parliament that is less zoo-like.

bellinisurge · 29/11/2018 20:51

@DogInATent - LibDems?
But, seriously, we are running out of time. We really are. It's this deal or no deal.

DogInATent · 29/11/2018 21:02

@bellinisurge - no, the LD are struggling to find a purpose - even if on paper they tick both proposals. They can't even find someone that wants to be leader.

There are three options.. Deal, No Deal, or Let's Call the Whole Thing Off. No Brexit is an option. The only reason the ERG will support the Deal is their fear that rejecting it will result in No Brexit (Bellingham said this today after a meeting held by Rees Mogg)

Talkinpeece · 29/11/2018 21:10

No Deal = Jumping out of the plane with no parachute
May's WA = Jumping out of the plane with a cheap parachute
Norway ++ = Jumping out of the plane with a decent sized parachute
Remain = Staying on the plane till it lands at the airport

The first three will all hurt.
Two of them give us the chance to walk to the airport and catch a later flight.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 29/11/2018 21:45

Deal, No Deal, or Let's Call the Whole Thing Off

Unfortunately we dont know if calling the whole thing off won't make things a hundred times worse. That's just fantasy.

AlphaJuno · 29/11/2018 21:50

Yanbu waste of time

DanglyBangly · 30/11/2018 07:07

May’s best chance to get this deal through is to get the public behind it, which then puts the MPs is a sticky position. A debate is a way of doing that. If it also ‘shows up’ Corbyn, the chances of holding a general election recede, because there’ll be no one that people want to vote for.

HellenaHandbasket · 30/11/2018 07:28

I used to quite like Corbyn, but now I think he is utterly screwing us (very arrogantly) by remaining as Labour leader and denying the party a strong leader right now.

user1471426142 · 30/11/2018 07:41

I really don’t see the point. At the best of times the tv debates make me angry as they are full of soundbites and cover too much ground to really test and probe the politicians. This one will be farsical.

I like the idea of the two part question a previous poster mentioned above. Leave yes or no and then if have to leave deal or no deal. Although to be honest, I’m not sure I’d actually trust the public to vote in its own best interest.

I don’t understand why we are being driven off a cliff edge when all the projections suggest life will be worse. The referendum was only ever advisory and the government should be brave and act in the national interest rather than slavishly saying this is ‘what the people want’ it is certainly not what I or most of my friends and colleagues want. I hope Cameron is hanging his head in shame. I doubt it though as on one of the Brexit chaos days, he was tweeting about his presence at some charity do. The twitter reaction was hilarious.

Theworldisfullofgs · 01/12/2018 10:14

I doubt they'll debate the fact that were leaving galileo either...
What a waste of fucking money.
Will I be able to get a rebate from the government when my sat nav stops working?
I honestly think Theresa May is losing the plot.

OP posts:
AamdC · 01/12/2018 10:19

Poliiricians not answering. questions directly is not a new thing they all do itHmm

DGRossetti · 01/12/2018 16:38

Will I be able to get a rebate from the government when my sat nav stops working?

It won't (and any fairly modern - 2014 or later) should be able to use the Russian or Chinese systems, in case the US one "goes funny".

The reason the UK wanted to be in on Galileo and insisted that only EU members could be a part of the inner circle of military goodies is all to do with commercial exploitation, and everything to do with having a guaranteed system to guide all those lovely missiles we are really going to have to sell to despotic human rights abusers around the globe. (Which is, of course, the UKs destiny).

Now, our finest merchants of death are going to have to sell missiles that only the EU can guide. And I can already hear the customers saying well, if we have to buy the missiles from one supplier, but the guidance from another ... is there a way to buy both from one ?????. The wrinkle there being there aren't many countries with as few ethics about selling to repressive regimes as the UK. Except, perhaps the US and (naturally) the Russians. Now a Russian GPS makes sense ...

The problem is, unlike A50, the legalese around Galileo was pretty watertight.

Sadly, the UK is going to discover that massively underinvesting in education and training means you really are at the mercy of other countries. Even if the UK could design and build a Galileo compatible system (or redesign all those missiles we've already sold), it still has to launch it. And the UK simply doesn't "do" rockets. Certainly not like the French. Or Russians.

missionofmercy · 01/12/2018 20:29

I have to laugh (hysterically and a bit madly at this point!)

Two people in a debate. One who is shilling for the WA, the other who is shilling for Brexit.

They should just buy a mirror and forget about it.

I doubt many people will care to listen to a political debate anymore now anyway. Same shite different day.

DGRossetti · 02/12/2018 10:42

Sticking with aerospace, to demonstrate how out on a limb the UK is moving, here's a story about NASA looking to contract out the rockety bit of getting shit into orbit ...

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/12/01/nasa_moon/

the TL;DR bit is the shortlist of companies that can build a rocket ...

Astrobotic Technology, Inc. (Pittsburgh)
Deep Space Systems (Littleton, Colorado)
Draper (Cambridge, Massachusetts)
Firefly Aerospace, Inc. (Cedar Park, Texas)
Intuitive Machines, LLC (Houston)
Lockheed Martin Space (Littleton, Colorado)
Masten Space Systems, Inc (Mojave, California)
Moon Express (Cape Canaveral, Florida)
Orbit Beyond (Edison, New Jersey)

That's 9 straight off all in the US. Against the UKs .... none.

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 11:04

Since Galileo is being mentioned, some science

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/12/03/brexit_satellite/

Space policy boffin: Blighty can't just ctrl-C, ctrl-V plans for Galileo into its Brexit satellite

Space policy expert Dr Bleddyn Bowen, of the University of Leicester, has told The Register that the UK faces considerably more hurdles replacing Galileo than just coughing £92m of "Brexit readiness" readies for a feasibility study on a homegrown version.

The good Doctor's comments are timely, as the British government snuck out a statement at midnight on Friday to the effect that the UK is indeed going to have a crack at building its own version of the navigation system.

Citing concerns about the military having to use a secure system, the development of which it was not fully involved in, the UK's Prime Minister, Theresa May, stomped off in a huff to work out how to use the US's "trusted" GPS instead while Blighty potentially spanks billions on its own effort. Ouch.

Bowen, whom eagle-eyed Reg readers might remember patiently explaining to Parliament's Exiting the European Union Committee how satellite navigation worked back in May, has pointed out that recent UK grandstanding on building its own version simply won't, er, fly.

There are oh-so-many issues, starting with a lack of spectrum for the things to actually communicate on.

Bowen explained that "hammering out where in the spectrum we can use is extremely important because that's also partly why America and the EU had such a spat in 2003, when the EU was pursuing its Galileo system. Because the way the EU originally wanted to do Galileo would interfere with GPS's operations."

It took a while, but the two countries eventually came to an understanding that made the systems interoperable. Neat.

The International Telecommunications Union (ITU) has also allocated portions of the available spectrum to China's BeiDou satellite navigation system. India and Japan have regional navigation systems in the form of NAVIC and QZSS respectively. And then there is of course the EU's Galileo and the GPS of the US.

There isn't a lot left for Blighty's domestic Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) effort. We prefer "Brexit Satellite", or BS for short.

Bowen observed that all GNSSes are not born equal. GPS and Galileo lurk in Medium Earth Orbit (MEO), while China's were, well, all over the place, with some in geosynchronous orbit and others in MEO. "So a lot of the technical stuff can only be hammered out once Britain knows the sort of frequencies it can use."

The UK will need to go to the ITU to scrounge some frequencies for its BS, which, as Bowen said, "is going to take a lot of time and resources".

At this point, those keen to take back control would suggest that Blighty should simply do what it wants as it bestrides the sunlit uplands of a glorious, post-EU future.

Not so fast, said Bowen. "If it just does what it wants, it could generate a system that does interfere with other users and other navigation systems and the UK will face consequences."

While the ITU is somewhat toothless, it does have rules. And the Brits, of course, love a rule. Stomping over the ITU will infuriate the other big players, and undermine the UK's position in the organisation. So "Britain can't be unilateral about this," according to Dr Bowen.

Assuming, after years of negotiation (it took the US and the EU the best part of three years) the UK gets its hands on some frequencies, the problems don't end there. The position of those frequencies in the band will determine the design and position of the satellites. It cannot be a simple copy of Galileo and will "require new innovations", Bowen said. "You can't just copy and paste."
You want to spend £92m on what, exactly?

The UK intends to spend £92m over the next 18 months deciding what to do. Bowen questioned where that figure had come from, pointing out that it is considerably more than the government planned to invest in UK launch facilities such as the Sutherland Space Port.

Bowen called for the government to put its money where its mouth is regarding UK space ports, and said: "If you were really serious about trying to stimulate launch providers for small satellites in the UK, why not effectively triple your original bid and give them £150m? Put that £92m into the launch sector as well, if you're that serious about it."

The US, which provides the GPS on which NATO depends, is in negotiations with the EU on getting access to Galileo's Public Regulated Service (PRS) as a back-up for its own system. It is the loss of access that has got UK military's knickers so very twisted. Bowen sees little point in the UK going it alone and warned against "fatalism" in negotiations. While the UK space industry will, of course, have its snout whipped from the EU trough, Bowen told us: "I'm fairly optimistic that with the right negotiation, in due course, that Britain will be able to get its way back into Galileo's PRS as a passive user."

Finally, as with many space programmes, Bowen reckoned that the already eye-watering price tag (estimated to be anywhere up to £5bn) of Britain's BS would likely not be enough, with the final system likely over budget and behind schedule.

He called for negotiations to continue. "Having British military forces that can work with the same systems as the EU's technological infrastructure as passive users, I think, works for both sides and is not going to really cost the EU much extra because if America could open up GPS in that way to its allies, the EU can open up PRS to its allies in that way as well." ®

TheElementsSong · 03/12/2018 15:15

DGR Some Leaver genius will just show up and chant "Project Fear!" and "Talking Britain Down!" and "Elitist Experts!" Grin

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 15:27

Leaver genius

The word oxymoron springs to mind. For more than one reason.

Theworldisfullofgs · 06/12/2018 12:09

£92 m just to decide!!!

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