Or is my 4 year old neurotypical?

[onemorestepalongtheworld]

Hi everyone, this is a very long post so I do apologise, I have posted before about this under a different name, but a couple of months down the line and I'm starting to think I am reading into things that are just totally normal for a 4 year old. My son started school in September and they aren't concerned at all and haven't seen a lot of the things on my list, my husband, mum and best friend are the only ones who recognise there may be differences to the typical 4 year old. I am fully prepared for you all to tell me I am being unreasonable and need to get a grip!! Maybe it's what I need to hear. Ok here's my list;

Licks things (not all the time but more often than other children his age and younger)
Puts things in mouth
Eats inedible things (play dough, flour, glue)
Likes being squeezed/tickled/lots of pressure
Very ticklish
Seems to find touch on his face/neck painful
Asks people to repeat themselves when speaking (had a hearing test, all fine)
Upset by loud noises but happily makes very loud random noises (excitable screaming and shouting)
Distracted by slight noises/movement
Not dry at night
Pooing in sleep at times (when potty trained at 2.5 had fear of pooing so held it and used to go in his sleep every night, finally got rid of the fear but still sometimes going in his sleep and not always recognising the urge to go in the day)
Difficulty falling asleep (still awake at half 10 some nights just laying in his bed)
Says the bath is hot/burning him when it’s just warm
Sucking his skin/clothes at times

One sided conversations
Ignores questions and starts his own conversation
Won’t always look at/speak to even people he knows (does give very good eye contact when comfortable)
Can come across very rude ignoring people
Repetitive routines (started as a young baby, 11 months old would go upstairs to the same room every night to get the same book for months)
Can get very angry and lashes out if someone says something he disagrees with
Doesn’t show emotion when saying some things (‘you are going to die and I won’t have a mummy’)
Difficulty following new instructions, has to be shown what to do
Can take things very literally and has said things at school such as ‘you’re the adult I’m the child, you need to help me’ ‘I don’t need to do that I’m only 4’
Doesn’t like people looking at him and gets embarrassed
Strong emotional attachment to things such as a coat, random items of clothing.
Emotional attachment to anything linked to being a baby

Clumsy
Lack of spatial awareness
Messy eater
Struggles with fine motor skills
Forgets routine daily tasks
Random bursts of energy especially when in a new place or when someone comes to the house
Always on the go but can be totally absorbed in certain tasks
Fidgeting
Picking nails

Obsessed with certain books/characters
Intense role play, takes on the role very seriously
Very good long term memory
Doesn’t show a lot of emotion/affection towards people (but has recognised facial expressions in pictures since around 2 years old)
Very matter of fact
Doesn’t notice if someone is upset or try to help them unless prompted
Almost robotic with saying sorry/comforting people (learnt behaviour)
Sometimes laughing when told off
Can be very sensitive to change and people he’s not comfortable with (having said that he can adapt well to new situations, especially with a lot of preparation)
Would rather stay at home most of the time
Over the summer holidays he totally fell apart without the structure of going to preschool every day, all of these behaviours were exacerbated. *

He has a weighted blanket and meditation at bed time. I use visual cues and social stories to prepare him for things. He met all of his milestones at the average age.

as he is struggling at nursery - behaviuor charts etc are rubbish for lots of kids and just add stress....
go back to gp and ask for referrel to peadiatrician ...they look at teh whole picture and will pull in OT if necessary
schools generally can refer to Educational psychologist but have limited referrals per year and will use them on those of statutory school age first ...
The peadatrician can also refer for Ed Psych as well which is why i'd suggest that route!
althoung in some areas they have a joined up approach -to check out your area ....google 'peadiatric occupational therapy 'area' there will be an nhs site and should tell you referral process
also 'community peadiatrician 'area'
maybe also 'asd pathway 'area' - different areas have slightly different approach.. Most of your initial referrals will be through Health not the nursery ......I think I woudl save your private money for now they should do SEN Support (google SEN support 'area') and be monitoring..
1st thing though talk to the nursery about the behaviuor chart stuff- they really need to know how much that is stressing him out..

sensory direct have some good products ds had some of there compression vests and I got his weighted blanket there but when he was older as tehy are weight dependent- maybe a waistcoat
if you have a toy library for children with sEN they may have some stuff you can try....

DS def responded to dietary focus - good protein breakfast/fish oils/multi vits as in this book
www.amazon.co.uk/That-Child-Brain-Food-Plan-ebook/dp/B00667L6NQ?tag=mumsnetforum-21
sorry for the list but hth

Both my kids are dyspraxic, my youngest with SPD too. Your list applies to both of them, my daughter more the Sensory stuff, my son more the dyspraxia/autistic stuff.

They were both diagnosed at 4 before they started primary school, which is important because without the diagnosis it's much harder to get support in school.

My son was diagnosed by his neurologist, my daughter by her paedetrician. They both have OT's, my son has a physio and my daughter a Speech therapist.

Their conditions affect them differently, they share lots of traits but are unique in others. All these conditions are unique to individuals and are a spectrum. Your child will be the same, unique !

Push for diagnosis prior to school !

@onemorestepalongtheworld I should also mention that their diagnosis was through an OT, as suggested by the school. They got through the whole of nursery and first year of school without anyone picking up on it! Both are doing well now and have developed strong friendships and are doing well at school!

Thank you all again for so much advice and information, I will be looking into all of this!! I think from everything everyone has said OT may be the way forward! Because at the very least it would rule out dyspraxia if it's not that. I think I'll have to look into going privately as the system is so stretched he's just not going to be a priority and the school aren't going to do things differently with him, they aren't willing to change the way they treat him at school because they don't see a problem. I had to battle to stop him having a very harsh sanction (missing his play time the next day after hitting someone in retaliation) and I've had to put Velcro on his shirts as they've said he has to try and do his buttons, something that was causing him great stress. He's now going part time as of today - another battle. To reduce the stress. But to the school it just looks like I am trying to cause problems and tell them how to do things, when all I'm trying to do is alleviate my son's anxiety.

thats really not good practice of them - he may not be able to do buttons well for ages (DS about 9) luckily school was a polo shirt...
they should be listening to you......does he have to go there?

If he is in school reception rather than school nursery
they cannot use part time exclusion child it is illegal -
it is an unlawful exclusion under section 19 of the Education Act..
any decsion must be made by the Local Authority and alternative provision arranged prior

I would suggest you talk to a specialist either
www.sossen.org.uk/
www.ipsea.org.uk/Pages/Category/get-support

locally you will have an independent parent advice- again look on 'council' local offer

re the OT it may not be too bad where we are the waiting time has reduced massively - check that out first...

There are A LOT of similarities to my son who has Dyspraxia and sensory processing disorder.

Ds was formally diagnosed with dyspraxia at 11 so fairly late but it made a massive difference when it came to school and his access to a laptop for extended writing tasks in secondary school. It was the GP that picked up on it not the school, his teachers had no idea they just kept telling him off for scruffy handwriting, not "trying" in PE or being really slow to get changed for PE.

Occupational therapy also said it was clear that he had sensory processing disorder, but we didn't pursue through formal diagnosis and just made adjustments as we went along. He has reaction lenses for his glasses as bright sunlight hurts his eyes, he hates mint toothpaste or flavouring as it "burns" and i used to take the tags out of his clothes etc.

The pooing issue was the same as you describe at 4-8years, he didn't like the sensory feeling especially if he was a bit constipated so he would try to hold on. If he was also busy playing he would try to hold on rather than stop and go to the toilet to do something that might be uncomfortable This caused his bowel to stretch and occasionally overflow, he had to take Movicol for over a year to help resolve the matter. Also dyspraxic children find it very difficult to wipe their bum as this requires a degree of co-ordination so when you put it all together it was a challenge but we got there in the end.

DS is 16 now and studying A levels. He spends most of his time in tracksuit bottoms and soft nonrestrictive clothing but for sixth form he has to wear a suit and tie, he doesn't like it but treats it as a uniform so puts up with it. He has learnt to cope and adapt with many things as he has matured so that has made his life considerably easier.

I originally thought that DS may have ASD as he was very rigid with his thinking and was very black and white in his responses. This included in primary school when he would argue his point to a teacher if some injustice had taken place. He would obsess about computer games and would talk about them incessantly to everyone. He also struggled to follow instructions (I now know this issue was his dyspraxia). Once DS went through puberty he became much more fluid and empathetic with his behaviour and thinking.

Just to add Op we went for private diagnosis for autism. This has to be done by a team of professionals and an OT is part of this. So it’s very possible that if you went direct to the OT if they have reason to believe it might be ASD rather than dyspraxia or SPD a report from them may (hopefully) help speed up the process for an NHS diagnosis as the private one is really expensive.

@averythinline I've requested the part time to relieve some of the pressure for him as he's only 4 so not compulsory school age yet. The trouble is getting the referral for OT as the school are not yet concerned so wouldn't have thought they'll want to refer and gp said they don't refer to OT. Went for general paed referral in September and still heard nothing. Wait times very long in my area :-/

@SunburstsOrMarbleHalls so so interesting to read this.. my brother with dyspraxia also showed most of these signs at 4 and I still wonder if he's asd but maybe because the 2 overlap so much!?

@MonsterTequila that's a very helpful way to look at it thank you!!!

onemorestepalongtheworld It is interesting to hear that your brother has dypraxia as my GP told me it is often the case that other family members may have similar nuero diverse issues. When my son was diagnosed it also became apparent that my father also has dyspraxia too.

As you say there are often overlaps and similarities with other conditions. When my DS was able to access support from the SENCO it was a revelation and boosted his confidence massively. His academic results began to steadily improve and he began to enjoy school.

My GP really pushed for DS's referral as she wanted it sorted out before he began high school, she did the neurological exam herself and contacted the school to get observations done and feedback. It was about 4 months from start to end so we were very fortunate for such swift action. We had an occupational therapy assessment that was about an 1.5 hours long then a week later a meeting with the Community paediatrician who made the final diagnosis. In our area we were also lucky as DS was given a place on a 12 week course (once per week) that helped develop muscle toning exercises and gave information and tips to parents on supporting their children.

I learnt that too many instructions caused him to overload and panic so I would break things down one thing at a time. I also became more understanding of things like lost property and chaotic organisation and helped put strategies in place to make things easier.

As DS has grown older and developed an awareness of his condition he has independently taught himself ways to overcome challenges because he knows why he finds some things more difficult than some others do.

@SunburstsOrMarbleHalls that's absolutely amazing that your gp was so so supportive and that you were able to access all of this before the transition to secondary school, such a scary time and huge transition that he may have struggled so much without it! Interesting about your father! I wonder if an uncle is enough of a link!!

Read this thread with great interest and wondered if posters might offer me the benefit of their experienced opinions please.....

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3439171-To-ask-for-advice-re-4-year-old-DD-ASD-Something-else-Nothing