Driving our children without car seats

[wwydo]

My ex delivered our children home yesterday evening, and I found out that they'd driven over 100 miles in the front seat of a large van with no car/booster seats - they were forgotten in his girlfriends car who'd gone out. They are 4 and 6, well below 135cm and weigh 2.5 stone approx. My view is that this is really dangerous, and its about the 10th time its happened & I have banned contact before when he couldn't appear to make safe decisions. I suggested he should have waited to drive them home, until he had the car seats - a suggestion that fell on deaf ears.

There is a huge backstory, so based on this without muddying the waters, what would you do? I need know if I am being unreasonable to consider banning contact between my ex and kids unless its ordered by court of through a contact centre - which are my thoughts here. We have no court order in place currently.

It's not just that journey though is it, he will be driving them about whilst they are there. Will he take you to court?

Well OK, until 2006 this wasn't a requirement but now we know better. If he can't guarantee that he takes every reasonable and legal precaution for their health and wellbeing, he needs to understand that this will affect his access to having the children unsupervised.

@StoppinBy I hear what you are saying - unfortunately due the car seat issues we've had before, I've had to make clear to the children for their own safety, that it is unsafe and Daddy is wrong to drive them without car seats. I would rather that so they speak up, than appear to have no conflict between us - as I'd like them alive as a priority!

I could drop them off and pick them up - but that would take over 4 hours & my entire maintenance cheque + some, in fuel. Even then I can't guarantee to keep them safe whilst he drives them around on his contact weekend.

Ref double coats and boots, I've suggested he buy sets for his place, but apparently my 50 pounds a week maintenance is for that - even though it barely touches the sides on their expenses.

I may ring for some advice with a solicitor.

Someone suggested reporting him - Has anyone ever reported this type of thing to the police? Do they even have time to deal with this kind of stuff!?

I may ring for some advice with a solicitor

Someone cleverer than me will be around to suggest how you can get legal aid etc but yeah, you will need a third party to enforce any ban else he could take you to court for deviating from whatever arrangement it is you have.

@PaulHollywoodsSexGut thank you! Just waiting for a solicitor to phone me back to see where I stand.

I would your local Police on the non urgent number and ask for their advice too.

I'd kill him with my bare hands. What a selfish thoughtless action to do.

@chipsnmayo yes it does depend on the child but it would be extremely unusual for a 6 year old to safely fit a seatbelt without a booster. It’s usually around age 10-12.

In a crash injuries are often caused that could be avoided by simply using the correct car seat. Internal injuries can be caused by the seatbelt sitting on the abdomen instead of the thighs. A high back booster also offers side impact protection.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JL_vOSwl6Ec

It’s not a case of ‘not flying through the window’ the difference is massive. This is a booster cushion so obviously would be worse with no seat at all. It really isn’t an overreaction wanting a 6 year old in a suitable car seat.

I've got both the blow up ones and the trunki booster packs (we use hire cars a lot) - the blow up ones are only going to be any good if he puts the time in to blow them up and fit them properly.

The trunki backpacks have barely any room in them for their size - a change of clothes and not much more - but at least if it's their rucksack then it won't be lost.

I have no idea how you go about reporting it, but this is completely unacceptable - 100 miles on motorways improperly belted is insane (and I live in a place that is pretty flexible on these things - no-one would bat an eyelid at filling the car with kids to go around the corner like we used to when I was a child in the UK)

I completely sympathise and would also be worried if this happened, and obviously there is a backstory, but please people stop with the misinformation - it is NOT illegal to carry young children as passengers in a vehicle without proper booster seats; it's not ideal, it's not safe but it is definitely NOT illegal. The rules are open to interpretation; they do say unexpected journeys over a short distance, but they do clearly confirm that it is not illegal as long as it is not a regular occurrence. As you have said they have seats in the usual car, I assume this falls under unexpected journey.

Not for a moment suggesting that you are unreasonable, but when we used to have DSDs to stay, if they weren't back by the time requested by their mum, she would kick off and threaten to block access and make life generally difficult, so we often cut things short to make sure we were back and not delayed in traffic.

www.childcarseats.org.uk/the-law/cars-taxis-private-hire-vehicles-vans-and-goods-vehicles/#over-three

This is the law. There are very few and very specific exceptions. The situation described by OP is not one of them.

It is the driver’s responsibility to safely restrain any child under 14 who is in the vehicle. I would definitely be getting legal advice as the OP’s ex has broken the law and has put the children at risk.

How is it an unexpected journey? He’s bringing them home after their contact weekend!

UK law dictates that a child must use a child car seat until they're 12-years-old or 135cm tall, whichever comes first. ... They must travel in the rear and wear an adult seat belt if they're over the age of three. Children under three should travel without a seat belt.

@usernamealreadytaken its 100% against the law - Perhaps review my post and current law again.

@wwydo - I did read your post. I was simply quoting the actual law, which clearly states that it is not illegal in certain circumstances, such as an unexpected journey which this was.

"When can kids legally travel without a car seat?

UK law dictates that a child must use a child car seat until they’re 12-years-old or 135cm tall, whichever comes first. Children over the age of 12 or more than 135cm tall must wear a seat belt.

There are some exceptions when a child does not need to legally use a car seat, such as:
•A child can travel in a taxi or minicab, without a car seat, but wearing a seat belt, if the driver doesn’t provide the correct child car seat. They must travel in the rear and wear an adult seat belt if they’re over the age of three. Children under three should travel without a seat belt.
•Children can also travel in a coach or minibus without a child car seat, but must travel in the rear seats of a minibus if a child car seat or an adult seat belt isn’t fitted. If child car seats are not fitted or deemed unsuitable, children aged three or older travelling in a minibus must use a seat belt.
•A child aged three or older may also use an adult seat belt if making an unexpected but necessary journey over a short distance.

The same rules apply for children with disabilities or medical conditions, but they may use a disabled person’s seat belt or child restraint designed for their needs. A doctor may issue an exemption certificate if necessary."

@usernamealreadytaken it was not an unexpected journey. It was a journey that occurs every 2 weeks on a Sunday evening. An unexpected journey would be occurring due to something unexpected - like someone falling unwell. Its very clear that you interpret the law incorrectly.

such as an unexpected journey which this was. it wasn’t unexpected though, their dad was bringing them home from contact which isn’t unexpected. The OP even said that he should wait until the GF returned with the seats.

What you quote is ‘an unexpected but necessary journey over a short distance’. This wasn’t unexpected or necessary (as could have waited until later when car seats were available) and was over 100 miles.

Even if it is legal, it’s really unsafe. What’s legal isn’t always what’s safe.

In my opinion it was an unexpected journey as you previously stated they would usually travel in booster seats in his girlfriend's car which was not available on this occasion. Therefore a journey in the van with no boosters would be unexpected, as the expected journey would be in a car with boosters. Doesn't make it right or safe, but does perhaps muddy the waters when it comes to legality.

I’d be fuming. It is basic safety and any parent that can’t be arsed to ensure their kids are in car seats for a long journey is irresponsible at best. I don’t understand how it didn’t even cross his mind to delay the trip.

A child aged three or older may also use an adult seat belt if making an unexpected but necessary journey over a short distance.

A 100 mile planned journey when they could have waited for the car seats isn't unexpected, necessary or short

In my opinion it was an unexpected journey as you previously stated they would usually travel in booster seats in his girlfriend's car which was not available on this occasion.

It’s the journey itself that’s unexpected, not the availability of car seats. In this case the journey wasn’t unexpected.
Nor was it necessary (as there was the option wait for car seats).
Nor was it a short distance.

So in this case, it doesn’t ‘muddy the waters’ at all in terms of legality.

Not being organised doesn’t make it unexpected

Can you tell him you will drop them off with him at a certain place near you where they can spend the day and then you pick them up? Some sort of attraction type place. So he can have contact without needing transport

@usernamealreadytaken I didn't say that. I said he'd left the car seats in his girlfriend's car. They are usually in his van on contact weekend as that is the vehicle he collects in. 100 miles is not a short journey, the journey was not unexpected. There was an option to wait. Aside from it being illegal my actual concern is the safety of my children and they were not as safe as they could have been, and this has happened several times over. I dont know how to keep them safe unless I block unsupervised contact.

Back in the old days my mum popped me as a baby in a bassinet on the back seat, but cars were slower, less vehicles on the road etc. So I know its not safe to risk that today. My parents also smoked at the dinner table, in the house, in the car with me - you wouldn't dream of it now mind you!

@Sirzy I was initially thinking a contact centre as I'm not 100% certain he wouldn't just drive off with them anyhow.

@wwyd - sorry, I misunderstood when you said the seats were in the car and I assumed that the journey was usually in the car.

I do agree it was reckless and unsafe, and as there is a backstory we don't know I'll just trust your mum judgement and go with him being feckless. I hope you sort it out and can find a safe way forward for you and your DCs. Given that courts grant access to wasters, addicts and other on the face of it unsuitable and unsafe parents, I doubt you'll be able to block contact but I do hope you can find some way to keep them safe x

www.childcarseats.com.au/legal-requirements

illegal here too an I can't believe you are actually defending people not using one.

Carseats are designed to ensure that in the case of an accident children are safe. An adult seat belt on a child will not do that at all.

Reckless behaviour, would never trust him to be safe with my DC again. Report his ass. I didnt rtft but was it clear he didn't have seats or did he just tell you that? - as he's a gaslighter