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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think speaking in another language to exclude people is rude?

56 replies

restfultartan · 25/11/2018 18:12

First off, I was brought up bilingually so have some insight to this.

My friend was holding a small drinks get together at her flat the other night, to celebrate a big birthday.

She invited an old friend who is Finnish, who asked if her partner of 6 months could come (Finnish), my friend said sure no problem. She got a message asking if her old flatmate who is incidentally Finnish could come.

There were 2 others who were from all over Europe, including my friend's husband. So, there were 4 of us sat at one part of the room, and the three Fins sat as a trio on the other side of the room. Not once, all evening did they engage with anyone else and spent the whole night speaking Finnish. I tried speaking to them as I know one of them, and received a rather curt "Yes" and then they proceeded to talk amongst themselves again.

The Finnish couple brought food to cook in the flat as they hadn't had time to eat beforehand (drinks were from 9pm..), they did not clean up their plates or pans.

My friend was given a bottle of Dom Perignon for her birthday by her parents, and kindly shared it in small amounts between all. There was a bit left, as I had poured the champagne. The Finnish couple then returned from the dining room and I'm pretty certain she had filled her champagne flute all the way up.

After a few drinks we decided to leave for a bar as my friends husband wasn't feeling well, so left so he could sleep. The Fins then proceeded to say "oh we'll stay here", but I'm not sure if this was said in jest.

It really pissed me off that they had basically ruined my friends birthday drinks and so I tipsily told them they had been "Incredibly rude". To which they tipsily retorted that they didn't like the area that my friend lived in! (For context, it's in a nice area of North London think £1m+, but the Fins live in a council tower block)

Do you think speaking in another language to exclude people is rude? Especially when at a small gathering at someone else's house?

OP posts:

DressingOnTheSide · 25/11/2018 21:26

Please stop making this about their nationality. They were rude as individuals. End of. I am from another Nordic country so I know the Finnish and other Nordic culture pretty well. It could be that they just were excited to speak Finnish, in the same way that I can get excited to meet someone that has the same hobby that I have.

But in this particular case, based on what's been said, they seem rude. As individuals.

LaDaronne · 25/11/2018 21:29

They were English medium schools and I can only assume they were doing it to gossip and moan about us kids because they knew we wouldn't understand.

Or, maybe, they wanted to talk in their mother tongue? It feels really odd to talk to people in language A when you're used to speaking to them in language B, so I can understand why people do it.

And referring to Turkish as gibberish? Nice. Nice undertone of linguistic imperialism in general to the thread so far in fact.

CoughLaughFart · 25/11/2018 21:45

Nice undertone of linguistic imperialism in general to the thread so far in fact.

I’m really not convinced that expecting people to speak in a language they know everyone can understand is ‘imperialism’. You’d be quick enough to criticise a French speaker working in Paris if they deliberately spoke to the only other English speaker in English.

MadgeMidgerson · 25/11/2018 21:50

you don’t know these people
You will probably never see them again

Why get aerated?

CoughLaughFart · 25/11/2018 21:57

On that basis no one should ever get annoyed about anything.

FithColumnist · 25/11/2018 22:43

@ManonBlackbeak: yes. That is actually the only reason why anyone speaks Welsh. It's not a proper language, we just do it to talk about the English behind their backs and say nasty things.

(Also, wow. It literally amazes me how we can go from "two Finnish people who would have been CF rude even if they had been speaking English" to blatant anti-Welsh prejudice. What the actual fuck is wrong with people?)

Joanne721 · 25/11/2018 22:58

Yes the Finns were rude

LaDaronne · 26/11/2018 07:02

You’d be quick enough to criticise a French speaker working in Paris if they deliberately spoke to the only other English speaker in English.

It's probably because it's early but I don't understand this.

Over half the world is bilingual and at ease with listening to people speaking other languages. Only in majority-monoglot English-speaking countries have I seen people getting worked up about this. And calling other languages gibberish and only being spoken for underhand purposes WHEN YOU COULD BE SPEAKING PLAIN ENGLISH DAMMIT is not particularly woke, I think we can agree.

puzzledlady · 26/11/2018 07:12

Did you friend say anything?

FWIW - the Finns were rude. I have a family member who lived in a quripeab country for a while (a few years) met a guy from the same country, learned the language. Then they lived back to her (my) original country where we speak English. Suddenly now, if they’re unhappy with anything/anyone, they will speak in his native language. I find this incredibly ridiculous as it’s done blatantly. My husband makes it a point to walk off if they ever do this.

blueskiesandforests · 26/11/2018 07:22

Threads with exactly this title pop up roughly ince a month in MN.

It is always the same:

OP postsa scenario in which people did something that would have been rude even if only one language existed in the world.

OP decides it was the speaking of another language which made them rude, totally ignoring the fact that the behaviour would have been exactly as rude if they'd done everything the same but spoken English.

The Finish people were rude but not because they spoke Finnish - they were just being rude, and would have been just as rude if they'd spoken English the entire time but withdrawn into a huddle/ helped themselves to more than their share of champagne/ cooked just for themselves at someone else's flat and not washed up / insulted their host's home.

Language is irrelevant. You might as well pretend they were rude because they all wore converse or because they're all blind or all wear glasses...

blueskiesandforests · 26/11/2018 07:29

shesaysgoes bloody hell you think bereved elderly ladies at a family member's funeral should all switch langues to include you (members of the group probably didn't speak much English and wanted to include you if you spoke Turkish), and call their language gibberish? You think they're the rude ones?

Biancadelriosback · 26/11/2018 07:36

I used to work as with people from all over the world but there was a strict rules of English only in guest areas. The reason being, it tends to make English people uncomfortable if staff/crew are discussing something the guest can't understand. Oddly enough though other nationalities didn't really seem to care! But there was a complaint nearly every time from English people.

In this case, the Finnish people were very rude, but I would have called them on it. Not to start an argument but I would have called over for them to stop being antisocial

blueskiesandforests · 26/11/2018 07:37

CoughLaughFart English speakwrs abroad do do this. Nobody criticises them. I live in Germany and work in German - occasionally I work with a German colleague who was educated in America, and he always speaks English to me when it's just a conversation between us in the admin office or with no clients about. Colleagues encourage it and find it amusing.
Speaking your native language is like taking off your shoes and walking barefoot on the beach, or taking your bra off at the end of the day - of course you can walk in shoes, but it's so much more comfortable, relaxed and natural. It's a blessed relief to do it sometimes and unpleasant and lacking in empathy to deny people that occasionally because you feel entitled to understand and be included in everything anyone says, even when inconsequential and irrelevant, all of the time.

ambereeree · 26/11/2018 07:58

shesaysgoes errr ok. Calling another language gibberish is very unpleasant.

OftenHangry · 26/11/2018 08:06

I don't agree that it's "just English" having problem with this. I have always worked in really multicultural settings and people from various countries were not pleased when few sat there and talked in their language only. It's just rude, obviously with few exceptions.

Knittink · 26/11/2018 08:18

They were rude, but it wasn't really about the language imo. Brits can be incredibly insular and paranoid about this sort of thing. Many seem to have an inbuilt suspicion of anyone speaking a foreign language in their presence. I think it's appalling. Many people come from countries where multiple languages are spoken, so being surrounded by other languages you might not speak is the norm. Why on earth would you ever presume someone was speaking their own language to exclude or insult people, unless you already knew they were a horrible person?
I'm a (British) MFL teacher btw and am often baffled and disappointed by the British hostility to foreign languages and the expectation that everyone will speak English. As for the concept that someone might speak another language for enjoyment or because it's fun to speak to someone else who knows the language... totally incomprehensible, obviously.

MarvinMarvinson · 26/11/2018 08:28

I just knew before I opened this thread that the old bollocks about people speaking Welsh just to spite English speakers would rear its ridiculous and ugly head.

Language has fuck all to do with this. These people were rude. They would have been rude in English too. It's the huddling up and refusing to engage with anyone else that's rude, and the bringing and making food but not clearing up that's rude. The language they spoke to each other in is neither here nor there.

LuvSmallDogs · 26/11/2018 08:34

I’ve previously worked jobs with mainly Portuguese/Polish/Latvian workers. When sat round having a fag, they would all chat in Portuguese/Polish/Latvian and one would turn and summarise now and then so that I could join in/laugh at the joke. I’ve always found that kind.

Gwenhwyfar · 26/11/2018 08:34

"They were English medium schools and I can only assume they were doing it to gossip and moan about us kids because they knew we wouldn't understand."

Um, if they were Welsh speakers, then it's normal that they would speak in their own language to each other.
Were they first language Welsh speakers?
Also, it's never rude to speak the native language of the country you're in.

malificent7 · 26/11/2018 08:38

Yanbu...ive had people talk about me in tgeir common language...eg...mentioning my name but the rest in hindi.....rude.

Knittink · 26/11/2018 08:38

They were English medium schools and I can only assume they were doing it to gossip and moan about us kids because they knew we wouldn't understand.

Or maybe they needed to talk about some if the many things teachers need to discuss but which the kids shouldn't be listening to. Or maybe they were just having a normal conversation, as people do in their own language.

GoneWishing · 26/11/2018 09:11

This was very rude, and would be considered very rude by all the Finns that I know! Definitely not in some way a feature of their culture or anything like that. Just a lack of situational awareness and good manners.

GoneWishing · 26/11/2018 09:16

I do understand you can get excited when meeting people who you can speak your own language with. In my early years of being an expat, I used to meet fellow Finns, who I didn't even have much in common with, just to chat in the language. We spoke Finnish among ourselves - but only when it was just us Finnish speakers! If someone's English speaking husband or friend joined us, we switched. Having chat in your first language is lovely, but there's a time and a place.

LinoleumBlownapart · 28/11/2018 10:34

I think that when you are in a mixed group and you can speak a common language of the whole group, it is very rude to speak another language that only some of the group understands. If you are making a remark in passing and it is only directed to one person, then I don't think it is rude at all. I'm bilingual. If someone is talking badly about others in front of them and in a foreign language then they are one I would feel sorry for, not the person being talked about.

CardsforKittens · 28/11/2018 10:52

I think that when you are in a mixed group and you can speak a common language of the whole group, it is very rude to speak another language that only some of the group understands.

I'm not so sure, especially if it means the majority of the people in the group have to speak English to accommodate a couple of anglophone monoglots. In my view it's rude when people who speak only English expect everyone else to switch.

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