To ask if anyone’s been sued by their family member? Grandad is suing me and I need advice

[LaughingGiraffing]

NC’d for this, but I’m a regular poster and sorry it’s a long one!

I’m a landlord of a small flat and around 3 years ago my mum moved back into the area and I rented the flat out to her. I wouldn’t usually do this but she would’ve struggled to find a place otherwise as she had practically no credit history. But I was clear that I’d still do everything by the book and treat her like I would any other tenant. She’d also bought some furniture - the flat was actually fully furnished before she lived in but she wanted to replace some bits with things more to her taste. I said yes as long as she either left it or replaced it when she left.

She didn’t last long, after 2 months she went back to where she’d moved from, and I was unable to get a tenant in for some time so used her deposit to cover rent arrears. She was fine with this and it was all done above board via the TDS. It turns out her dad, my grandad, had bought the furniture I mentioned above. Even though it would have meant me replacing bits, I offered to give it back to him. He said no as he had no room for any of it - he said if I ever came to sell the flat then to just sell the furniture on and give him the cash.

I’ve since found out he also funded her 2 rent payments, deposit, and a few other bits and bobs. Not my business but it’s relevant. I had no idea if the arrangement was a loan or a gift, nor did I especially care. At the time he asked me for the deposit back and I told him he’d have to speak to mum because I had to used it for rent arrears, and my agreement was with her not with the person who gave her the deposit (again I had to treat her like any other tenant).

Fast forward to now - a couple of weeks ago, 12 hours before we were due to fly our on holiday we found that we’d had fraud on our bank account. We had a bit of savings but not really enough for spending money (we stupidly left getting currency to the last minute). For the sake of not getting a short term loan, we went to a couple of family members to lend £300 each from them - including my grandad. We got back last week, luckily money was back in (and I opened a new account!). So I transferred the £300 to my grandads account on Saturday from the new account. Due to the account being brand new, it’s unfortunately taking 3-5 working days for the transfer.

The day after we got back I met him in a coffee shop for a catch up. He started having a go at me saying that he’s sick of people owing him money, that’s he spent 3 years chasing my mum for the money he spent on her when she lived in my flat. Fair enough - but he started asking me why I had ‘his’ things in the flat. I explained that mum left them and that he was fine with them staying in. He denies saying this. I said I could try and get them back but I would need to first replace them as I have a tenant in. He doesn’t want that - he wants the money for them. He asked me how much they all cost - I said I don’t have a clue, ask my mum.

All this time I had my 1yo son on my lap and he was being very aggressive, pointing at me, screaming and throwing his arms about. People were looking. He said he thinks mum owes him about £1600 and he is “transferring the debt to me” because it all relates to my flat. And I’ve said, I’m not paying for it, I will pay you back the £300 I borrowed, but nothing else. He said “No, you will pay me back this £1600, and its up to you if you get it off your mum, but you WILL be paying it to me because there’s no way I’m ever getting it off her.” I once again said no. At this point, the plan was to give him the cash for that £300, but I wanted a paper trail as I had a feeling this wasn’t the end of it. So the next day is when I called to make the transfer.

I spoke to my mum and said she needs to sort this with him. She agreed and sent him a list of what she owes him, furniture included, and said once he looks at it they can discuss how it’ll be paid back.

Today he called me demanding that I got to his house NOW because the £300 wasn’t in his account, I’m a liar. I explained it wasn’t instant and he was having none of it. He’d got mum’s letter, and “you lied to me, it’s £2,000 I spent on her”. I said I didn’t lie, I didn’t have a clue how much she owed and I never even gave a figure!! It was HIM who’d guessed it was £1,600.

After screaming at me some more, he revealed he is meeting his solicitor tomorrow because he’s taking me to the small claims court for this £2,000 plus the £300 loan. And that I had “better come up as soon as I can and discuss this face to face.” He then hung up on me. I didn’t go up, he was frightening me.

I’ve been in tears. I don’t owe him anything, and could do without being fucking sued by my own grandad. I guess, despite this letter from mum, he’s decided that I’m the one who now owes him because it’s obviously easier to bully me than to wait on my mum paying him back.

For context - we’ve done a lot for him including caring for him when he’s had operations, taking him out for lunch, taking him to airport for holidays, etc and we have never once been thanked.

I have no other family around me, my mum is abroad, my dad died and my brothers live far away. I can’t really afford a solicitor, and I don’t know a great deal about litigation. Does he have a case? Has anyone else been sued by a family member? It’s bloody awful, I don’t need this, I have enough on my plate, my DH is extremely depressed and has had suicidal thoughts, I’m trying to take care of him and I think this may tip us over the edge.

Before anyone asks the inevitable - no dementia diagnosis, he’s generally fit and healthy (though I know that doesn’t mean he won’t have dementia). It’s very possible that’s he’s actually just nasty, I’ve seen it in him for decades now.

Random So, by your own admission, you come from a family who routinely take advantage of your good nature, and yet you look down on someone who tried to take the emotion out of things by putting in place a legally protected (albeit still charitable) financial arrangement?

So your joint sense of obligation to your parents is actually at your children's expense then Random?

Random you are complaining about letting out a £650k flat in London and how hard done by you are! You've just moved to another house too!

Are you actually expecting people to feel sorry for you?!

What a mad thread with the fantasy story lines being made up and then the OP being held responsible for the morality within these tales.

I do find it interesting that some posters have this underlying belief that a younger woman must take on the debt of their mother and grand father, and somehow shoulder the weight of the morality as well.

It’s fascinating. Makes my mind go a wandering.

Obviously it’s nothing like the deeply awful seriousness of the female servitude of systems like Trokosi and such like, but there is an echo there.

I do wonder whether societies throughout the world do still share this dirty little secret somewhere in the dark recesses of collective memories, built on misogyny and weird kinks around ancient ancestor lineage ... that young women must shoulder the burden of the family secrets, debts and mistakes, whatever they are, so that older generations, well, males lives really, can be eased, and this must happen in an unspoken way, as sacrifice is expected not praised or unusual.

Hummmmm. Argh, sucked into this thread !

And there is no way in hell either of us could go to grandpstents for money for a holiday (well, we don’t have GPs, but we couldn’t go to them if we did). This is why the OP’s scenario sounds a bit odd to me.

OP sounds like she's got her head screwed on to me!

MrsGideon - the way DH saw it (and I have to agree), is that at some stage we were going to have to buy a property or fund a care home for one of my parents anyway, as they have no equity in their house and no savings really. Where they live is quite remote and not suitable / too isolated for one if them to be on their own. My mum has said she would want to be near me if my dad wasn’t around. So DH said we might as well get set up and prepare for them now, so that if one of them passes away, at least they don’t need to feel they have no option. So it was for my mum in the shorter term, but there was a longer-term potential plan too iyswim. As it is, I don’t think either of them could actually live alone now, so they would either need to live eith us or supported accommodation. So the whole thing was a waste of time.
MIL is widowed and another matter completely, but DH has sorted her for now, even though she’s still complaining. I guess what I’m saying is we all have to deal with these issues at some point in some form, but there is no way I could charge my parents rent. They would never speak to me again.

This is why the OP’s scenario sounds a bit odd to me.

Well I can’t even begin to tell you how odd it sounds to me that, not once but twice, you spent vast sums of money setting up family members with free housing which they subsequently didn’t use, and that you seem to think this is normal behaviour which other people should also be expected to display. It’s an absolute alternate reality.

I agree Fromage except the OP lives in a mansion and has an extensive portfolio that includes Kensington Palace. She could pay her grandad the money owed by her mother out of change she keeps in her last year's Prada handbag - but she won't.

Her mum couldn't pay the rent and had to move in with a 1960s pop star to cut his toenails other such menial work for less than minimum wage. I can't say who that was as it would be outing.

Meanwhile, grandad is selling his kidneys, liver and lights to pay his electricity bill, walking about with holes in his socks and living in a hole in the road so it's hard not to be sympathetic towards him.

All down to the OP having no family values... (shaking head in disbelief...)

I guess what I’m saying is we all have to deal with these issues at some point in some form, but there is no way I could charge my parents rent. They would never speak to me again.

If you were less rich and had to charge them rent in order to pay your mortgage you might. If they refused, you would have to tell them they couldn’t stay in the property and would need to pay market rent elsewhere. I wonder if you’d still be looking down on OP in those circumstances.

You still seem utterly unable to understand that your unusual wealth gives you options that OP simply didn’t have. It’s a staggering blind spot.

Its nice to see the cold light of day cooling the madness on this thread.

op I suspect your GF was just blowing off steam...not okay with the way he did it but I would be bloody surprised if he actually attempts to go down a legal route given the facts of the case!

Blanche, I take your point, but DH is from a different cultural background where it is your responsibility to look after your parents (and other older family members or in-laws if necessary) in their old age. This is whether you have the means or not - the expectation is still there. So this is where I’m coming from and I can assure you I’m not the only one.

Not relevant. OP’s mother didn’t need taken care of in her old age. She is fit and healthy and just needed somewhere to live. She got a good deal by living in her daughter’s property and paying less than market rent.

People who don’t have hundreds of thousands of pounds going spare still look after their parents. But they do so by moving them in to their own homes, or, if that isn’t possible, by finding them the best care homes available.

You say ‘This is whether you have the means or not’ but what can people really do if they don’t have the means to support a parent by giving them a property? Go into debt? Lost their home? Risk the safety and security of their own children? Is this what you think OP should have done instead of charging her mother a fair and very reasonable rent?

@randomonhere I know I’m really harping on at you but it’s clear that you’re totally unable to imagine this situation from the perspective of someone who isn’t as rich as you. I don’t think you can really understand the decision made by someone who can’t afford to make the choices you had the luxury of making.

Toddlepod you know her portfolio is a little less extensive now though, of course.

What with the money she paid the Russians to fix Brexit.

I mean, it's bad enough that she writes all those fan letters to Donald Trump (that's what she's doing now, that's why she's not been back to this thread) but now she's refusing to pay back someone's loan that she had nothing to do with and no knowledge of.

It's just so selfish.

So random how does that work?

You buy a flat with a mortgage you can’t afford to pay back without rental income but you can’t ask your family to cover the mortgage because they wouldn’t speak to you again and/or it is the done thing whether you can afford it or not.

The flat gets repossessed because unlike you, the mortgage company couldn’t give a crap about helping your family out or doing the done thing. They are only interested in you paying your mortgage.

How is going into debt for your family helping anyone. Why can’t your parents look after themselves. Or is the reason they didn’t move into their respective places because they can look after themselves and don’t want to be treated as a charity case.

@randomonhere Re your DH's cultural background, so they just have children so someone else can take care of them later? So they're not taught responsible saving, prudence or independence? Sounds lazy and not instilling values of self-reliance and responsibility, to me. Just have kids and let them pay for us. Not a very wise or mature value system to instill in your children. Don't worry about getting a good job and saving for retirement darlings, just have kids and they can pay for everything you need, even though you should be set, and you're just starting out. Sometimes the cycle needs to be broken, cultural or not.

In your post you've acknowledged that that cultural norm isn't the case everywhere else, so why are you acting like it is outrageous for the OP to charge rent to her DM @randomonhere ?

I understand caring for your parents as they age, but imo that does not mean going into financial hardship for them, when they should have saved for their retirement, like we all are told to do.

Well as you say Blanche, you would have your parents move in with you if there was no alternative. People do this all the time.
I realise that the OP’s mother is not at this stage (well who knows what stage she’s at), but the fact remains, that many people would feel very awkward renting to their own mother. As I said, it’s a minefield.

that many people would feel very awkward renting to their own mother. As I said, it’s a minefield.

Yeah, maybe some people would feel awkward. Maybe some people, though, would feel good about the fact they they were helping their mother save lots of money.

I think you should acknowledge that ‘renting to your mother might make you feel awkward’ is a long way from your original position of ‘renting to your mother is morally wrong’. You’ve said some exceptionally unfair things to OP on this thread, and it looks like you now see that you can’t support or justify them.

I apologise if I’m offending anyone on here, but I’m just giving a genuine perspective. It’s not about money anyway. It’s about expectations. Maybe the GD feels like it’s all “take” from his adult daughter and that “his” money has somehow ended up in the hands of his granddaughter because of her decision to rent her flat to her feckless mother and he is very miffed about how this situation could come to pass. Maybe? Many parents would disown their DC for less. My mother in e didn’t speak to me for 6 months because I sent a card late. Older people feel vulnerable and sometimes act slightly bizarrely and you can hardly blame the GD in this situation for feeling a bit hard done by.

Maybe some people, though, would feel good about the fact they they were helping their mother save lots of money.

Exactly. And the mother would feel good that she was helping her child out, which is what all parents want to do. Give them money. Not take money from their children.

Fromage, I did not know that. Is that why she had to let go of the Aston Martin?

I actually saw the OP in Harrods last week. Despite having millions in offshore accounts and millions in UK banks, she was shop lifting - stuffing artisan bread and soft cheeses into the pockets of her over-sized Stella McCartney overcoat.

She dropped her diary and there was an entry, Oct 2015, saying how she'd 'mugged' her GF out of money her mother owed him and how she was going to use it for a bit of fanjo dazzling decorations.

AND you're dead right - March 2017 she met Putin for a coffee in Starbucks and kept the receipt for the Brexit engineering FB activity! It's all there.

Her poor GF can't even afford to line the pot hole he's in with old cardboard.

My mother in e didn’t speak to me for 6 months because I sent a card late.

If that's the case, it seems you are the victim of toxic narcissistic parenting, because I can assure you that is not normal. To not speak to their own child for 6 months over a late card? It seems you don't realise that you and your parents have a dysfunctional relationship. Because that is just not normal behaviour from a parent. I feel that you have a story for the CF'ers thread. You've been used and taken advantage of then snubbed and ostracised over the slightest infraction. That is toxic dysfunctional parenting. It is not healthy or normal. Tbh I would have gone NC with them if they were my parents and they treated me like that. There is NO EXCUSE for treating your child that way. None at all.

My mother in e didn’t speak to me for 6 months because I sent a card late

Excusing and accepting that kind of behaviour is crazy.