GTA for 15 year old??

[RedSkyLastNight]

I thought this had been done to death, but actually couldn't find anything recent.

DS (almost 15) says that GTA V is the only thing he wants for Christmas. He has already played the game (2 of his friends have it). He followed up asking for it by telling me all the things he thought I would object to and his counter arguments against them. We had an interesting discussion about misogyny. He promised me that if he could have the game he was happy to continue to discuss the themes in the game with me.

Confession - I've never played or seen GTA. I only know what I've read on the internet which is very polarised. After he asked for it I spent some time googling and found mixed opinions on a suitable minimum age.

Do I get it for him (on the basis he's already played it anyway and make it a condition that we keep lines of communication open)? Or is he still too young (and in that case can anyone suggest any good games that he might accept as an alternative?)

www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf

There're links in there through to UN data if you care to check. It's a starting point only. It's quite well known that the UK is excessively violent, I hadn't expected that to be so controversial all of a sudden.

As far as where it comes from, well, there have been many links to video gaming and onscreen time generally. I'd suggest googling it as this thread has already taken up more of my time than I'd anticipated. Obviously large amounts of violence is a cultural choice, since it isn't common to all European countries, so we might look at parts of our culture that promote violence - and the general culture males are steeped in in this country is the very worst kind of American ghetto culture. It's not just through video games, but all areas where they are encouraged to view violence and become involved in it will play a part. Online porn and aggressive methods of communication on social media will also be involved. A lot of the rap music they listen to is aggressive as well, and again accepts violence as a normality.

Get your heads out of the sand. I've recently been in a school where the teenage boys literally couldn't keep their hands off the girls - there have been headlines demonstrating the amount of harassment our girls have to face. Some males somewhere are perpetrating that, most likely those soaked in the cultures where violence and misogyny are accepted normality or something that is ok once they've sat and listened to a lecture and nodded heads wisely. And my experience of other European countries, perhaps not France but certainly the Scands, the Benelux and Germany is that they do indeed spend much less time on screens watching American media.

If you fear and mistrust new technology

I know it quite well actually, having worked with it and on it as it's developed over the last 4 decades and trained many others on it. I'm very familiar with the literature about its social impacts - and very very tired of hearing the same old complacent blindness from people who really don't know very much about it at all beyond 'press this button and get this reward'.

Another link about violent crime, it's not a new thing in Britain. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

I played GTA2 (top down, 2d game) when I was 7 or 8. I played 3d GTA games since about 10.

Probably the most extreme bit I remember is that GTA Vice City included the ability to pick up a lady on a street corner, stop on some grass and then watch the car start shaking then watch her get out and your money metre fall a few hundred dollars. At 10-11 I had a fairly good understanding of what was going on, but it was just a pointless little 'easter egg' in the game and wasn't important to the story or graphic. I think GTA5 has strip clubs but not sure about prostitutes on the street.

Do you let him watch 15/18 rated movies? It's not much different tbh. He will still know crime is illegal, that you shouldn't run over people, shouldn't swear left right and centre around the house.

For me personally I would say no harm done.

His almost 15.

He plays it amyway

I don’t want that kind of violence and misogyny in my home. So my teens don’t get games like GTA and neither do DH or I.

I also don’t understand this logic of “they do it elsewhere so I shouldn’t stop them at home”. Most teenagers can access drugs if they want them. We don’t supply them at home, however.

I think you should listen to your own son. He has listed what he thinks you would object to and counter argued against it. Does that not tell you he is already aware of what the game contains and that he is already aware of the influences within it? If he is correct about what you would object to then it will have very little effect on him. He has already identified the problems within it and you have brought up a son who recognises right from wrong. I would buy it for him and show him that you trust him and value his maturity. To have that sort of conversation with you shows he is beginning to transition towards adulthood successfully in my opinion.

very very tired of hearing the same old complacent blindness from people who really don't know very much about it at all

Count me out of that. I'm currently doing a PhD in Education and my specialist interest is the use of technology and gaming in the classroom.

Video games are fantastic for many reasons.
If. You're suggesting that some children become violent or commit crime due to games or movies, you're very mistaken.

I don’t want that kind of violence and misogyny in my home.

This would be my argument too. Not about whether or not it damages children, but simply that I don't want to see or hear it and my money isn't going to be spent on it.

my ds will be 16 next month.

He plays a lot on x -box, and one or two games are now 18 9against my better judgement. BUT I hate GTA with a passion and I have told him I won't have it under my roof.

Even when he is 18, I don't want it in the house. He has given me every reason why he disagrees with me, and I shrug and say, no.

He totally gets my issues with the prostitutes, the blow jobs and the casual use of 'nigger' But he says that you can choose to access those parts and that he is interested in the car racing part.
he may be right. He can find out at someone else's house, or when he leaves home.

He has accepted it, and I think it is worth the fight, because I want him to understand that some things are worth taking a stand over.
I think that he respects my stance, even if he doesn't agree with it.

I don’t want that kind of violence and misogyny in my home.

Do you not watch certificate 18 films or tv programmes? Are there any PEGI 15 or higher rated games in your house?

Be aware that there are two component to the game, single player and multiplayer.

Singleplayer - Would you let him watch 18 rated films? Because there's nothing in GTA that you wouldn't find in an 18 movie. There's violence, but mostly its nothing worse than you'd find in a 12A movie. There are strip clubs, where you'll see breasts but no more. You can hire a prostitute, but you won't see anything other than the outside of the car you're in.

There is one quite graphic torture scene, where you choose the implement of torture .(car battery, baseball bat etc). It squicked me out, but its designed to. Its meant to make you feel very uncomfortable about what the player character, and by extension you are capable of. This is true of the game as a whole, I wouldn't say that it glamorises crime or violence at all. All of the 3 main characters lives take a downturn as a result of the crimes they commit.

Multiplayer - see above, but add in real people being dicks. However, the real people being dicks is true of almost any multiplayer game. I play Rocket League, which is suitable for all ages and you still get people swearing and making racist comments down their microphones. Multiplayer also has microtransactions. You don't need to buy this stuff to have fun in the game, so don't let your DS tell you otherwise

@PebbleDashed

Having looked through the link you provided, we're firmly mid-table for every statistic with the exception of Scotland when it comes to Assault. Scotland has DOUBLE the ratio of assaults in England and Wales.

Does this mean that Scots play twice as much GTA as the English do?

There is no evidence whatsoever of links between popular culture and increases in violence.

However there are many studies showing the direct causal links between austerity, services and support for young people, education, and crime.

If you think that crime is on the rise, maybe take a look at police numbers and youth work budgets before blaming computer games and music.

After all, even when young kids were listening to the Beatles and reading Biggles, people were still getting killed, assaulted, and raped on a daily basis.

To be honest I see a crapton more "Won't somebody think of the children" hysterical responses to computer games than I ever see people "sticking their heads in the sand". But then, for either point of view, doesn't there have to be a proven link between the two to get worked up over in the first place? Which we still don't have. So treat games like you treat every other form of media, and use your best judgement. If you raise your kid right then playing GTA isn't going to criminalise them overnight. Their best mate in school is statistically far more likely to do that.

Do you not watch certificate 18 films or tv programmes?
No, or hardly any at least. Porn is blocked on our router, and neither of us can stand torture scenes or sexual violence. We started watching Game of Thrones but stopped during the first season when the violence and rape became more full on than the books.

Are there any PEGI 15 or higher rated games in your house?
Yes there are a few PEGI 16 - Star Wars ones, which DH and I played on the recommendation of gamer nephew who thought our teens would like them and advised they were only comic book-style violence. There is a Spider-Man one DS wants for Christmas which I’ve promised to investigate.

I'm with Somerville,

I like watching things like Midsomer Murders.
No horror, extreme violence or sexual violence. And porn blocked on our router.

Anyway, even if there were, ds aged 16 wouldn't be watching them!

But... You do realise everyone is different?

I'm not a fan of horror or crime related violence but I love fantasy like Game of Thrones and anything gaming related. I also enjoy porn.

We can't all be the same. It seems a bit hysterical to stop someone from living their own life because you "won't have it in the house". If DH tried to police my viewing or gaming, or blocked porn on our Internet, I'd LTB.

I think it's the most awful game but both my ds played it at 16 and have grown up to be law abiding citizens of good character.
They both love and respect their partners, both have good jobs and are nice men.
I hated them having it and can't understand the appeal tbh.

ProfessorMoody - he is 16. The game has an 18 rating. Even when he is 18 he has younger siblings who would see him play it.

Would I allow him to watch a film with sexual violence in where his siblings could see it, just because he is 18?

No. He can do it when he has his own place.

It is not stopping him from living his life - it is a game ffs, not a lifestyle choice - it is not being hysterical to say that I don't want things which are so degrading to women in my house.
I am allowed to take a stand. Should I allow him to have games/films which are degrading to gays, or racist, or disablist etc? No.

ProfessorMoody This thread isn't about stopping adults "living their own life". OP asked if she was being unreasonable to get a very violent, adult game for a 15 yr old, on the basis that he has played it already. Some of us replied that she would be, having made different desicions for our own teens. Another poster then questioned me on that, and I answered to confirm that indeed we don't in this household watch any torture or rape, as far as we can avoid it. Even if I liked porn or violence, I wouldn't want my kids watching it, and I've never found 'do as I say, not as I do' to be an effective parenting technique.

I already had children when DH and I met. If he had wanted to remove the porn block from my router or play misogynistic video games he wouldn't have had a chance to become part of our family. Safeguarding my children is my top priority. But thankfully he hates all that too.

I'm not talking about the OP's 15 year old. The game is an 18 and that's down to the parent.

I'm talking about an entire household being "banned" from things because of one person's opinion.

I safeguard my child. I'm still allowed to watch and play the things I want to, as is my husband.

I think that once somebody gets to 16 they are an adult who can make their own decisions. Another game rated 18 and the irony. You can join The Army at 16, but can't play COD until 18
It is difficult to monitor unsuitable games for younger siblings, though, so we just used to have certain times or move it into the oldests room.

Why don't you take an interest in it with him?
Yes there is a lot of violence etc but with you sitting with him, it's a great way to start conversations about this. It's also bonding as you two can get involved with the story. I would suggest red dead redemption 1 or 2 as the story is a lot better and it's less violence, swearing etc

I'm not talking about the OP's 15 year old.

Ah, well the rest of us are. Since that's the point of the thread.

On your wider point, I'm sure there are things that you don't allow in your house that I do allow in mine. All parents make their own judgements. But porn block on router is a fairly common one - when my eldest child started senior school it was recommended by the school, actually, and a lot of parents followed their helpful instructions on how to do so.

Actually Somerville, people were discussing themselves as adults. You included.

As a teacher, I'm more than aware of internet safety seeing as I teach it. There are many other ways of preventing a child from accessing porn without having to block it for an entire household. You'd think a school would be more up to date with that.

I'm talking about an entire household being "banned" from things because of one person's opinion.

but no-one said a household was banned because of one person's opinion.

dh and I together chose to put the block on the router and neither of us are interested in those films etc and he doesn't play video games.
I don't think saying your teenagers need to respect house rules already in place is 'an entire household banned' from anything