To be utterly fed up dealing with the hard of thinking

[Wiggler1]

I am so so sick of listening to/reading the opinions of people who just fail to engage their brains for more than a nanosecond on any subject that takes their fancy.

“We voted leave/brexit means brexit”

“Trans women are women”

“Fed is best”

“Women just aren’t as good at corporate jobs”

“Vaccines cause autism”

“Animals don’t have emotions/opinions”

Ad infinitum. We KNOW that brexit is likely to lead to economic doom (at least for a period), trans women are not biological women, breast is actually best for the health outcomes of mother and baby at population level (although there are very valid reasons it may not be for individuals), women are just as successful in the corporate world if they’re not held back by men (or other women), vaccines do not cause autism, animals very visibly do have emotions/opinions, if you bother to watch them for long enough, etc etc etc.

I know this is likely to be controversial because of the examples I’ve used, but my point is that people just don’t seem to be able to engage with the slightest piece of research or evidence that their opinions are not in line with the facts.

I can understand knowing a surface level about a topic and getting things wrong, we’re all learning, but listening to people shouting their world view progressively louder, despite all evidence to the contrary, is utterly infuriating.

If you have a well thought out opposing view I’m more than happy to debate, tell me about the research you’ve done on potential economic outcomes of brexit, or why formula is as good as breast milk, I’m interested in differing opinions as a way to learn more myself. Yelling “BAN ABORTIONS” at me without any substance whatsoever and bashing me over the head with a placard makes me want to burn down the world.

When people claim to have researched a topic, it is very rare that they've hit the archives to draw on historical information, or have undertaken original bottom-up research.
By research, people all too often mean "I've been hitting Google pretty hard and can now re-quote what other people who I've never met have posted on the Internet".

I don’t think people with different opinions are stupid!

My own opinions are based on facts.

If everyone’s opinions were based on facts we could have sensible discussions. People with different opinions would know different facts to me which might be better than my own facts, and would therefore help me change my opinion.

But often they’re based on nothing at all, when you dig deeper the opinions fall apart with nothing behind them.

I’m running out of ways to say the same thing so hopefully this is clear now.

Disquited1 I prefer peer-reviewed publications, not infallible as they have their own bias, but possibly the best we have for now. But then I’m a scientist .

But all the examples you posted aren’t scientifically measurable. I’ve never seen anyone argue that trans women have female chromosomes. But whether that is necessary to use the descriptor woman is down to opinion not science.

If everyone’s opinions were based on facts we could have sensible discussions.

I think for many (most?) people, feelings are more important than facts.

They feel a sense of identity/patriotism towards Britain, but not the EU (so Brexit at any cost).

They feel as if anyone should be able to be whatever they want (so people can change biological gender).

They feel for women who struggle to breastfed (so fed is best).

They feel vaccines are scary/unnatural (ignoring that dying early of horrible diseases is perfectly natural).

And so on. Heart trumps head. Truth doesn't matter.

Bumsex I’ve not managed to find any measurable definition of ‘woman’ that encompasses both biological women and trans women, biologically there are females and males, some of whom feel like they should be females for many varied reasons. You cannot change sex, although I understand people may feel more comfortable presenting as the opposite gender than their biological sex. The slogan “trans women are women” is not based on any facts as far as I can tell, and I don’t think policy should be made based on feelings. I have no strong feelings about trans people in general, I don’t know any personally.

As I said, my intention was not to start debate on these issues, there are plenty of threads for that, although I know it’s tempting as these are current issues.

Also you go on to qualify breast is best by saying you mean on a population level. But generally when people are talking about bf they aren’t talking about health promotion or getting rates up on a national scale they are talking about their own specific circumstances. So the fact that breast may be best for the vast majority has little bearing on a mum who needs medication that passes through their milk or is struggling with supply.
Vaccines don’t cause autism - that is a scientific fact and we also know that animals feel emotions. But you’ve clumped together a group of examples that don’t support your argument very well imo.

Half the worlds population has below average intelligence, FACT

But it’s scientific fact that breast milk is better than formula, we know this. It has to be balanced with risk, as you say concomitant medications, maternal mental and physical health and other factors need to be taken into account on an individual basis, but fundamentally, for a healthy mum and baby breast milk is better than formula. If you cannot breast feed for whatever reason and it’s affecting your mental health then that changes the risk factors. There’s a very good and interesting thread running here at the moment on breastfeeding and why rates are so low in the UK, really made me think.

Read the thread Ajas, I know fed is best, and save the personal attacks, they’re unkind and unecessary.

FFS. Half of the world's population does not have below average intelligence. This has been quoted on this thread a few times and is clearly wrong. Maybe OP had a point.

I don’t think it’s about intelligence, as I said sometimes it’s the most academic people who hold opinions based on feelings (I can’t comprehend Christian scientists but I know several, we have some lively debates ).

I think we’ve just lost our ability to think critically, to keep asking why until we get to an answer we’re comfortable with and can defend in debate. I wonder if identity politics and a concern over hurting feelings is blunting our thinking skills.

I know, I didn’t want to get into bell curves and issues with measuring intelligence at this hour though!

Thank you for those of you who have engaged in the spirit this was intended, it helps to hear lots of opinions and it’s made me realise I need to try and explain things more eloquently the first time round, rather than ranting and then spending the next few pages explaining myself .

Night all.

I think for many (most?) people, feelings are more important than facts.

We're all gonna die rocks back and forth in the corner clutching peer-reviewed journals

Maybe it's because sounds bites have become the norm, (some) people want everything delivered to them in bite sized pieces to be quickly processed so they can move onto the next thing. Living at a fast pace, never stopping to think ideas through.
My DH is one of the people that would fall into the OP's bracket, ill informed comments with no substance behind them, drives me mad when I try to enquire why he's made that (whatever it might be) claim. He just escalates the volume of whatever point he's making without really engaging in explaining WHY he believes it. Makes it very hard to have a reasonable discussion. I now refuse the discuss Brexit with him, not because we voted differently, but because he can't back up any of his opinions with facts.

re: breastfeeding- I do agree breast is best for many babies. However, it is not best for all mothers, or even all babies. Some babies struggle latching on. If a baby is fed formula they will be ok. It is not a huge deal either way.

The only time formula is dangerous to a baby is if they live somewhere with little or no access to clean water (hence why Nestle got into so much trouble some years ago over pushing their formula on mums in developing countries).

The thing about animals not having emotions or personalities or thoughts really annoys me. People who believe this obviously have never had a pet dog or guinea pig.

walkingdeadfangirl If so many people have an IQ lower than 100, why is 100-120 (or is it 130) the average range???

I find it infuriating that people are so unable to look at context and subtlety. People want simple answers to highly complex issues. This is how T*ump has done well, and (on the good side) why people are finally boycotting palm oil.

So few of us seem able to combine passion and determination with the ability to look deep beneath the surface.

I get you op - you mean you're fed up with people not using the intellect they DO have available to them, reacting before thinking.

On some issues I think emotions get in the way. I can be guilty of that on occasion myself. I think we all can, but too many people are set to default on this - act/speak first MAYBE think later.

"On a slight tangent, I'm sick to the back teeth of trying to deal with businesses or organisations with hard of understanding staff in customer-facing roles.
From utility companies to my local gym or council, ime it's far more difficult than it used to be to communicate or get them to understand what you might be asking, even when spelled out in simple terms, either verbally or in writing." Omg don't even get me started!

Took several MONTHS to get the energy company I'm currently stuck with to stop charging me for the previous tenants debt! They asked me to email my details with screenshots of my tenancy agreement and ID to prove I wasn't the debtor. Numerous times they "accepted" the evidence then "the system" forgot this info had been updated and I was getting charged again! The NIGHTMARE of explaining this in words of one syllable to the various call handlers (because it's bloody impossible to get direct contact details so you're dealing with the same person)! Eventually I got a call handler that had a brain and knew how to use it! Matter sorted that day and no problems since! I doubt she was particularly more qualified than the others it was more a case of they couldn't be arsed to listen properly and think how to sort the issue - she basically "deleted" the account and set it up as if it was a completely new one and that aspect has been fine since.

Sainsburys - recently had some issues using their site. This is a widespread and ongoing issue relating to their software not currently coping with visa's which they are trying to resolve - but the issue I'm pointing out here is that their call handlers don't all seem to know about this issue - even though I've been told sainsburys management have sent out "memos" or their equivalent - and then speak to ME like I'M the idiot for requesting they checkout my order by phone. The call handlers I've spoken to who ARE aware of the issue are mystified that others aren't, as apparently it's (for want of a better way of putting it) been widely publicised within the company. To add insult to injury even when they've gone to check with the boss and come back and it's clear they now know I was right - no apology!

Council - lost count of the times the main switchboard have put me through to COMPLETELY wrong dept even though I have specifically asked for X by the name THEY have given it they put me through to sodding y and apparently their telephone system doesn't allow Y to put me through to X I have to hang up and ring again! On one occasion it took 4 goes!

Why did we get the brexit referendum in the first place? I think Cameron et al genuinely believed that remain would win, that it was a vocal minority of farage acolytes that wanted it and so a win for remain would end the debate and not cause any issues. Perhaps as indyref had gone for remaining within a union too, that further made him feel safe in taking the risk. Honestly my experience was that people however they voted were still really surprised/shocked that brexit won.

On the other hand as someone with a customer facing role, I've spoken to 2 people in the last month who are infuriated that in order to deliver our product to them, they would need to provide a delivery address, a correct delivery address.

One bloke complained that the driver didn't make the delivery when scheduled, and after a few minutes it turned out that the number on his letterbox was different to the number he had given. And he wouldn't reveal the correct number, because his house was easy to find and the driver shouldn't need it.

Happened again yesterday, bloke complained that I was wasting his time because I wouldn't open an account for him with just a street name. There was a lot number but he couldn't be bothered getting it.

Fucking bonkers.

Where did I say anyone was stupid?

Don’t be disingenuous. What else is meant by ‘hard of thinking’?

The absolutely blissful irony of your first post sounding off about people not thinking, followed by your climbdown upon realising you’ve expressed yourself badly and failed to make your point

I understand where you’re coming from. Rule by popularist opinion fed by political manipulation.

The whole Brexit ideology based on Farage fear, xenophobia and blinkers is quite frightening. There is no logical reason to have voted to leave that is based in fact. It’s entirely propaganda driven. The people most likely to suffer the greatest are those who proudly ticked the leave box because ‘we want our sovereignty back’ - which, of course, we never lost.
Fed is best is technically accurate in that nobody wants a starving baby but it is dismissive of the evidence base around the significant advantages of breastfeeding. It’s not popular to say breast is best because that makes women who choose the less advantageous option feel bad.
There is either an inability or an unwillingness to accept truths sometimes but I don’t think it’s necessarily down to be dense more about them being egocentric and wanting their version of a situation to be right despite all evidence being to the contrary. It’s easier to sell a myth than to say I know it’s not true but it’s my choice.