4+ school assessment rejection

[Pyracantha1]

Where we live the competition for state schools is very fierce. Too many children and far fewer places in good state schools. So people often have no choice but to apply to local private schools in case their child does not get into a good state school.

So my 3.5 year old had an 'assessment' at one of these private schools and we have now Been told that he was unsuccessful. This particular school I didn't really like anyway but it was a backup option.

I didn't expect to feel so bad after getting the rejection but to be honest it stings. My son is very bright, well behaved, inquisitive and loved his time at that school. So I am not sure what went wrong that they rejected him.

Anybody have insight into these 4+ assessments? What are the general reasons for rejection? AIBU to feel bad for my son even though I didn't particularly care about this school?

But you can't assess for ability at 4?!

Thank you everyone for your kind words and support. It's been all very helpful.

Like many of you I was totally against the idea of assessments at this age but like I said before it felt as though I had no choice, as we don't have many options here where we live.

So I have an update. My sons nursery head called the school this morning to get feedback. We were told that my son was a polite, kind and sweet little boy who played extremely well with other children. However he didn't seem in the mood to answer questions or interact much with the teachers. They also said a few other things such as they see some kids who they wouldn't touch with a barge pole. After listening in I am so glad he wasn't offered a place there. It really doesn't seem like a nice place if they talk like that about other children. Also it puts my mind at ease that my son was kind and polite. He always asks questions and is inquisitive, so not sure if he was having an off day or they just had to come up with an excuse.

I really hate putting my child through this. He has another assessment in January for another school and it's already making my heart sink.

But you can't assess for ability at 4?!

Name change as this is very outing.

I work at a private primary with 4+ assessments. In my experience, it is absolutely possible to assess for ability at 4 (or rather 3, as that’s the age that those born February onwards are when we see them). The children we get almost all pass the exam to get into the super selective secondary school attached - I think we’ve only had 2 children who didn’t get in in the past decade.

First of all we have 90 minute sessions involving a series of group activities where we see how the children perform - the groups are based on birth month as it would obviously be unfair to compare a September with an August child at this age. We’re not looking at who can count to 100 or spell their name - we’re judging their willingness to consider new ideas, their imagination, logical skills etc.

We then draw up a shortlist and invite the best candidates back for interview. We obviously don’t interview the child by themselves - it’s a family interview with their parents to help us get a sense of whether our school is the best fit for their child.

And it works. We end up with a class full of extremely bright, inquisitive children.

It is more an assessment of the parents. (don't know if that makes it better or worse!)
Also weedin out any disruptive kids or those with poor cocentration and also tryin to get a balance of sexes and ages within the intake

Bbc your posts sheds some light but at the same time it's incredibly sad. A 3 year old is just that. One of mine was still in nappies at 3. Thankfully she has turned out very well.

OP word regarding 'having no choice' if the state schools aren't good. My last two went to a school outside our catchment area as we moved and literally had no choice. I didn't even look at OFSTED reports, just thought I would move them once a place became available in our outstanding local. The school was brilliant, very nurturing and a fairly high BME cohort (we live in a very White town) and they were so embracing of all cultures/religions. It very much had a village feel even though it wasn't.

I told a friend who was horrified when i named the school as apparently it had been 'inadequate' several times. My dc stayed there and did very well, they are now in grammar schools, so the schools not being 'good' are not necessarily bad.

The children we get almost all pass the exam to get into the super selective secondary school attached -
well of course they do if the same organisation are prepping the kids and setting the tests!!

You're absolutely right that you don't want your son there. I also found through friends with children at selective schools they quite happily encourage any child with any slight problem to leave very quickly. Her son had undiagnosed dyslexia (fairly mild) but is very bright. As soon as he was having slight issues with his reading (still within average range) they started talking about "not being able to cater for his needs", "not suitable for their learning environment". No interest at all in helping the child.

bbcbbcbbc - that's not the whole story is it though? You might end up with a class of bright inquisitive children, but unless the ones you chose achieve the best results at 11/16/18/whatever then you haven't actually got the brightest ones have you? It could be that 90% of the kids who apply are 'bright' - so your job is very easy. The test of whether they get into your own senior school is not that strong a piece of proof IMO.

you can select at 3 or 4. you are assessing the ability to perform in a certain way in a very short time period. and it may be that the kids you select are bright. What it definitely doesn't mean is that the kids you don't accept are not bright.

and am v unsure how a family interview can prove anything at all TBH - apart from how engaged and wealthy the parents are. And that is is no way a reflection of how bright any child is.

My DC's school do a taster day which is an informal assessment but it's really only to make sure that they can cope with the child. They have a few with mild SEN, including ASD and a few others with mild physical disabilities but are a small school and can't cope with very extreme high needs. (There are parents who for whatever reason try to conceal this from the school - despite the fact their child clearly needs specialist intervention).

Oh my goodness op, that school sounds like a hothouse, which is what a lot of private school are (I used to go to a private secondary school). They are 3 fgs, they are just put in a strange setting and are expected to interact properly with adults who are strangers. Says it all really. Leave them to it.

Do you work for Putney High School Bbc? Or any of the schools in the Girls Day School Trust?

To be honest, You are probably not wrong that you can very broadly identify a “bright” child at 3.5, but as you must know, children develop at different rates. Some may be slightly “later starters.”

There were no 4+ exams for my son around here, but 7+ was common for some independent London preps eg. St Paul’s and the ilk. He didn’t get in due to mild “dyspraxic tendencies” ie. his small motor skills hampered his handwriting speed. He definitely wouldn’t have got in at 4 as he could barely hold a pen! Yet at 11+ he got into all those schools and now, in Year 11, nobody would tell the difference between the ones who entered the school at 7+, 11+ or 13+. Children have peaks and plateaus at different times and at 3.5, the only thing that is certain is they have along way to go!

I teach Reception and find the thought of assessing a 3/4 year old absolutely depressing. They've still got so much learning to do, so much growing.

That said, I also understand the whole hot-house selective schools thing and am beginning to suspect it's going to get worse, not better.

Do you work for Putney High School Bbc? grin Or any of the schools in the Girls Day School Trust?

Not Putney, but not a million miles away . We’re not in the GDST though.

To be honest, You are probably not wrong that you can very broadly identify a “bright” child at 3.5, but as you must know, children develop at different rates. Some may be slightly “later starters.”

Of course - but those children wouldn’t be ready for our school at the age of 4. That’s why we, and other schools like ours, also offer admission at 7 and 11.

What it definitely doesn't mean is that the kids you don't accept are not bright

Of course not, and I would never claim that. Many children will not get into our school at 4+, but will get into our rival schools (some of which I’m sure are much more competitive).

We’re not just looking for ‘bright’ kids - we’re looking for bright kids who are the right fit for our school and who we know will thrive in the environment we provide.

and am v unsure how a family interview can prove anything at all TBH - apart from how engaged and wealthy the parents are. And that is is no way a reflection of how bright any child is

Quite the opposite - the purpose of the family interview is to help us understand which children have a natural love of learning and which just have pushy, wealthy parents. It’s quite easy to tell in a family interview setting.

Op I find this thread really 💔 especially what @Bbcbbcbbc had to say. They end up with the ‘best candidates’. Maybe you have an angel looking out for you / your son and that is why you’ve dodged this bullet.

I can totally see why you put him in for the test. Playing the school lottery is such a worry.

I looked for a school that would nurture my children and be kind to them. Teach them right from wrong. I’m not against tests. My son goes to a grammar but at age 4. Not for me thanks. Loads of luck to you and your son, he sounds adorable! 💐

well of course they do if the same organisation are prepping the kids and setting the tests!!

The past papers and information we give the junior school pupils are all available on the school website for all applicants, not just junior school ones.

And there is no way any private secondary school would let in all the junior school kids if they were, on average, less intelligent than outside applicants.

Private secondaries live and die by their public exam results. They’re not going to risk jeopardising their GCSE and A-level A* percentage by making it easier for junior school pupils to get in.

The contents and assessment of 4+ seems to be shrouded in secrecy (it mainly appears to be watching them play) but I agree, maybe they just had too many children and picked. Unless your son smacked another child or something in the assessment I doubt he did anything wrong

Bbc - I understand what you’re saying and yes, there are always different entry points if you don’t get in at 4+. I guess if you’re looking for a certain “type” of child then schools will believe in their selection procedures. So if you want a group of girls who all live reading and story writing and will sit still and colour inside the lines for hours, then that’s what you’ll get. Probably this type of child is easier to engage and and cope with at this reception stage. It’s personality more than intelligence really. My only worry with this is that you may be overlooking many future geniuses because they seem distracted or can’t produce lovely handwriting or something. I do think the mark of the best schools are those that can cater for intelligence in all its manifestations, as the brightest kids are often a bit “outside of the box.”

Onwards and upwards op, find an nice kind and nurturing school for your ds. Those children who they would not 'touch with a barge pole' probably have SN like my two .

My niece finished this summer at a very good private secondary school with a prep school attached (she didn’t go the prep school herself - she went to state primary).

As a prefect last year, one of the jobs she was assigned was to sit and chat to parents while their three year olds took the 4+!

She says that they all turned up with immaculately presented 3 year olds (one was wearing a tie, and it wasn’t a boy!). And before the children went in, their parents were reminding them to say tell the teachers about their violin lessons and how they were learning Mandarin.

I’m just saying this OP because I get how stressful this is for you - everybody wants the best for their kids but there are a finite number of these places available and not everyone can get them.

Are there any non-selective private primaries near you? There are two in my town.

I totally agree random, I read somewhere about Stephen Hawking, that he was at the bottom at school, until age 9 at teacher saw his genius. Myself, I was at the bottom throughout school, I had dyslexia, dyspraxia and dyscalculia, the lot. My concentration was poor and so was my work ethic. I left school at 18 with 5 GCSEs (AtoC grade), and went to college where I completed a GNVQ Advanced Health and Social care. The tutor there encouraged me to apply for University, that had never ever happened before. I was told at school, that I was not academic and the only jobs suitable were ones that did not require much skill.

Needless to say due to my college tutors belief and encouragement, I went to University, Studied a BA (hons) with a 2:1 and later MSc with Merit. I hope to do a PHD in Clinical Psychology one day. How you are at school or as a child, sometimes has little or no bearing on what you will be like as an adult.

Hi Pyra,
Can I ask if the school you are talking about is on a road beginning with P and if the assessment in January is one with a number of sister schools?
If so I’m in EXACTLY the same boat - 3.4yr child rejected for the former, and pinning hopes on latter. It’s not nice at all, as I (obviously) think mine is wonderful and would be a credit to any institution so how the hell did they get it so wrong??

But the fact is, I don’t want him to go somewhere that doesn’t want him. So onwards and upwards!

Shoot me a pm if you fancy a chat and a commiseration!

I do think the mark of the best schools are those that can cater for intelligence in all its manifestations, as the brightest kids are often a bit “outside of the box.”

We want children who think outside the box.

I can’t say what the tests/activities we use are without outing myself, but they’re designed to show us which children can think creatively and show initiative.

We’re not looking for those who can sit quietly and read/colour/write - we want those who engage actively with the adults in the room, and who we will enjoy teaching.

We don’t judge by handwriting at all - some three year olds can write excellently, others haven’t even started learning yet, but that’s a reflection of opportunity, not intelligence.

And finally, we’re not just looking for quiet, excellently-behaved kids.

One of the brightest pupils I’ve ever taught, and who was with our school from the age of 4 until 18 before going on to Oxbridge - I still remember her 4+ assessment. Mainly because she had a full-blown tantrum at the start and refused to leave her dad! But it became clear during the assessment what an incredible mind she had - when a problem was presented to the children, she came up with an approach to solving it that would never have occurred to me.

From my experience of the 3+ and 4+, there is an element of luck of the draw involved too so don't feel too down about it. Your DC sounds lovely and it's probably nothing to do with him not being vocal enough etc. Where I live, the selective schools get a high number of applicants for the limited number of places they have on offer. The child just has to stand out in some way and be memorable in the teachers mind in addition to being polite, cooperative, well behaved and inquisitive. In DS's case, as sad as it may sound, I think he only got in because the staff were in love with his bright red cable knit tank top, bow tie and floppy hair 😳. They kept talking about it when I took him in and then when I came back to collect him they were still cooing over the tank top!

Bbc, I suspect you may teach in an area not far away from me and it’s useful to hear your perspective as a selector.

I have 4 DC, boys and girls and never went down the 4+ route with any of them because I wanted the all to at least have the same primary experience. They went to a non-selective prep 4-11.

What does concern me is that a lot of schools seem to believe their own hype when it comes to selection of the “brightest.” I have a DD now, about to sit 11 plus for various London schools. This is the hoopla pupils (and parents) are all doing -

LUS - no reasoning exam (VR / NVR seen as irrelevant), but a maths paper and English comprehension and story task. Interview for selected candidates following exams.

G&L - a one hour reasoning test only. Interviews for all candidates.

SPGS - one hour computerised CAT screening test. If invited to exam - various maths papers, English paper and a non- fiction comprehension task. Intsrviews for selected candidates.

This is just three of the schools. She is sitting for five, as everyone does it seems.

I’ve already gone through all this with three older children and even the individual schools change their selection procedures from year to year.

So every school differs in that some place more importance on interviews and interview them all, some believe in VR / NVR while others believe this is no indication of anything, apart from children who have been overly prepped. All schools claim to be able to spit an overly prepped child, but can they really?