To think art is a hobby not a degree choice

[smithsally884]

Dd y13 Maths probably C, physics probably B ,but shines at art and is predicted A* (94 percent share AS and coursework to be reused for a level). She is severely limited in what she can apply for because of poor predicted maths and physics . She wants to do some sort of art degree now.previously wanted to do primary ed with qts but now thinks it will be too stressful.i think she might as well burn £50k aibu?

A friend's dyslexic daughter did a degree in graphic arts and is now very successful, with commisions to design adverts, posters etc for some very high profile organisations.

But lon term happiness miht not be best served by doin a degree and not bein able to get a job in your chosen area and ending up in a minimum wage unskilled job and bgi debt

Agree 100%.

The idea that you could embark on a degree in something you love followed by the rest of your life having to work two or three completely unrelated jobs at a time, just trying to keep a roof over your head, is a horrible one.

That is why I would suggest some aspect of art that could actually make money. You don't have to write off the huge world of art just because depending on selling framed paintings for your income might not be a solid financial option.

I tend to 'believe' graphs and figures in front of my eyes, BlahBlahBlah, not myths inspired by some hope-filled egalitarian ideology. It would be truly wonderful if a degree in English Lit from XYZ obscure university that cost the same as a degree in English Lit from Bristol offered the same prospects. But it doesn't.

As to 'Career decisions should not be made on salary alone' - I offer you Oldsu's words do you not realise that one of the greatest problems that young people face today is low wages and high cost of living, how many articles have you read about young people not being able to buy their own homes whilst paying sky high rents, or unable to get jobs in the first place.

I really must tell my friend with the sell-out art shows at exclusive galleries in Edinburgh that she shouldn't have done her degree at the Glasgow School of Art (yes, that one) and should have kept it as a hobby instead. Of course, the OP could just be talking out of her arse instead.

@math I fully accept that there are league tables and I understand the data around graduate employability and the graduate labour market. Like I said , I write about this stuff and I teach this both as part of postgraduate courses and as CPD for professionals working in the sector. I too have seen the graphs you talk about but the difference is I understand how to interpret them and implement them in a practical way. I understand the context.
Choosing a university purely on its position in league tables does not guarantee you a good job. There is so much more to it than that. Some universities who are lower down in the league tables sometimes teach niche subjects or have an excellent reputation for a particular subject. Employers know this. We are moving away from graduate recruiters only targeting the 'top' universities. They understand that graduates are not always the most employable and by ignoring non RG universities they're actually missing out on a huge bank of talent.

And yes, I believe in the transformative nature of higher education and believe HE has a role to play in social mobility. That not just my opinion. It's why universities have access agreements and invest in widening participation initiatives. For some people just attending university is a huge, scary step and that bravery often doesn't extend to those universities that are considered elite. It doesn't mean their experience is any less valuable.

I have never suggested that salary should be ignored in career planning but it should not be the main consideration. Again, not just my opinion but is the general consensus amongst career guidance professionals. How does that saying go? Find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life? There is truth in that.

A foundation doesnt have to mean a long journey. Where is her college,? it doesnt have to mean travelling to london to camberwell for example.

I'm glad you think Foundation is a no-brainer. It would be ideal for your DD, I think, allowing her to explore her interest in art while leaving the door open to STEM subjects if for some reason she decides a career in art is not for her..

If your DD succeeds in being offered a place on the UAL Foundation Diploma at Camberwell (or another site) she will be able to apply for a place in halls. I don't know when she would have to register her interest in this.

There are other universities and further education collegess offering Foundation and it's probably wise to apply to a few, in the same way that you would apply to several universities. Her art teachers are best placed to advise. Google throws this up www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/art-and-design-foundation-diplomas-(art-foundation)/
But her teachers are most probably the best source of advice.

Good luck to your DD.

Not sure why someone should be so work averse that 'never working a day in your life' would sound attractive. Sometimes what you love at 17 can look a bit silly as you mature. Your priorities can change too. You might like to have somewhere to live with your partner and 2.3 children at age 34. You might like to have a pension steadily growing by age 50.

Some universities who are lower down in the league tables sometimes teach niche subjects or have an excellent reputation for a particular subject. Yes, and some that are lower in the league tables have dreadful reputations for certain subjects too.

There are rankings for art schools as well as general university rankings. They are very much worth taking into account when considering investing three or more years of time and effort at a pivotal point in life.

How does that saying go? Find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life? There is truth in that.

Not sure why someone should be so work averse that 'never working a day in your life' would sound attractive.

I've slightly lost track of the substantive argument - but am utterly fascinated by the apparent misunderstanding between the two sentences quoted above. Was the point lost in translation, or is the second merely a sense of humour failure?

(And no, I don't need the first explaining to me!)

@mathanxiety you have monumentally misunderstood the quote I used.

Sometimes what you love at 17 can look a bit silly as you mature. Your priorities can change too. You might like to have somewhere to live with your partner and 2.3 children at age 34. You might like to have a pension steadily growing by age 50. Well yes, obviously. That concept forms the basis of a number of theories around career decision making. It is also why there is now an emphasis on getting people to develop career management skills as opposed to a career decision being a one off event. There is a recognition that people change and develop and that priorities change. We also have a dynamic, unstable labour market.

Again, you don't need to explain university rankings to me. I work at a university and spent a decade working in marketing and student recruitment. I get it.

I know what the quote means. It wouldn't work as a phrase unless work was disparaged.
I don't have much sympathy with the basic premise behind it, or with your argument.

You would be very tired of a job you loved at any age if you found that you really couldn't afford much on your salary and were basically living from paycheque to paycheque, so not able to stop what you were doing and retrain or get away on holiday or finance a new business of your own.

My point is that you are better off with a higher salary for many reasons, including the ability to enjoy your leisure time, the ability to afford a return to further education or training, to afford a hobby of your choice without worrying about how much it cost, or to start up your own business.

People should be encouraged to compromise. Money gives you options. It gives you the option of putting your career management skills into operation. Without a financial cushion to fall back on, your career management skills will in reality consist of sucking up whatever unpleasantness your workplace throws at you.

In the current climate (Brexit) nobody in the UK should count on never being made to pay back student loans, or on the future existence of the current welfare state, or on medical care that is free at point of service.

Glad you understand that some lower ranking universities offer courses that are not up to scratch.

When a university offers many courses that have a poor reputation, then the ranking of that university suffers.

Conversely, when a university offers may top notch courses, then the ranking reflects that.

@mathaxiety you can stop explaining university rankings to me now - I've made it clear I understand how they work. That patronising tone really isn't necessary.

I have no desire to argue with you. I debate and discuss these concepts on a daily basis. The difference being my students are developing a theoretical underpinning, examining academic research and are using this to develop their professional practice. It's not just their opinion and they're not just relying on Google.

Just one final point, I've never said salary shouldn't be a consideration just , if at all possible, it shouldn't be the only or primary concern when making career decisions. However, I understand that people have different priorities and these priorities change depending on what life stage we are at, or what's happening in our personal lives.
It is possible to combine the two concepts. Career management skills include financial capability - this means teaching young people to consider the financial implications of particular career or educational paths. Thus allowing people to make informed decisions.

Many people will work 40 hours a week for 40+ weeks a year for over 40 years of their lives. In many cases spending more time at work than with their own families. Isn't it important that, if possible, this time is spent doing something we enjoy or at the very least don't hate.

Yeah complete waste of time. Meanwhile you consume a large amount of art on a daily basis without even known g it. But yeah, it's totally useless.

Literally no one I know has a job related to the degree they did. It's just proving that she can work at something for four years, not setting her life path out for her. Let her do what she will enjoy.

@ofclocks exactly. Around 60% of graduate jobs don't ask for a particular subject. They value higher education and the transferable skills students develop.
Most (if not all) universities have employability embedded into the curriculum.

I do get where mathanxiety is coming from on this actually.

It’s not that art is worthless - art has both a social and a practical application. I think it’s more that just blindly following a passion without thinking about how it’s going to pan out as a job aid isn’t always the best idea.

What gets people success in life I think is a basic level of intelligence plus people skills plus grit. Obviously there are many exceptions- some people are so privileged that they can’t fail. Some have zero people skills but a niche skill that makes them in demand. Some are connected and some are lucky.

But in general, just following a passion isn’t enough. If you follow that passion AND have a think about things like networking, crossover with other areas, where can your skill set take you, etc and you grasp opportunities as they arrive you have a higher chance of being successful than just drifting through. And that goes for all subjects not just art.

So I would look at what she enjoys doing and then think about which jobs and careers use those skills. If it’s art, is there anything that she specifically likes? Technical drawing, digital design? Illustration? Animation? Surface design? Sculpture? Etc etc. How can she get practical experience in such an area while studying? That’s what will get her ahead of her peers.

I loved art and I was good at it - I ended up a scientist and now I work in industry. I indulge my creative side in my spare time. If money was no object I’d switch to solely creative tomorrow.

It isn’t either or. She can follow a passion and be grounded and directed and practical

@bowl this exactly why high quality careers advice and guidance is vital. Young people need to develop career management skills which enable them to make informed decisions based on their individual skills, talents and priorities. An understanding of the labour market is vital too.

I am involved in recruiting as well - I’m not a recruiter but anyone coming into my team has to be interviewed by me. I would look at the institution someone went to as part of that. It’s by no means the only factor and I try to be as blind as possible to many factors - I get someone to blank out applicant name and dates for example. But there is considerable variation in quality of institutions and courses with those institutions. Some much lower ranked places have excellent departments in specific things. And vice versa.

What I look for is someone who will fit my team and be able to do the work PLUS I like to have someone with initiative, drive etc. I’d rather have someone with that than someone who ticks all the experience boxes but seems unable to work by themselves or innovate for example. And I’d rather have someone shy and hesitant but who can clearly ace the job than a car salesman type who talks the talk but can’t deliver.

I guess a degree can do several things.

On one level it is proof that an applicant can work to the level that gets them a degree.
On another level it imparts specific skills and knowledge- as a pp says that’s not needed for many jobs but for a lot of technical stuff it is. You aren’t getting a PhD place at CERN with a PPE degree, even if it is a first.

So all these things are a balance and will depend on what she wants to study and what she wants to do with it. She should look at the reputation of the institution AND the specific degree course. She should look at where alumni have gone in the past. She should look at what else they department offers - placements for example.

She should talk to people doing the jobs she’s interested in - I have done this loads with students who have randomly contacted me. Ask them how they got where they are - what they studied, anything they would have done differently or avoided etc.

I had zero careers advice - I went to a stereotypical sink comp in a deprived area. I’ve done ok but I’ve also made mistakes and not taken the best routes. If I knew then what I know now ... good advice is gold dust

I work with four graphic designers. There’s loads of work that starts with an art degree. The important thing is to choose a career path and a degree to fit it.

@bowl that is all excellent advice and exactly what I have been telling young people for years.

A knowledge of universities is important. You can't simply go off league tables ( plus there are so many and they all measure different things!) Course reputation is as important as institutional reputation.

Some of the larger graduate recruiters are starting to down the route of blind applications and blanking out institutions as well as name and age.

I pity OP's daughter. Tell her to be an au pair or an accountant.
Who needs creativity and culture....

Another one with a family member who did an Art degree. She is a well known, highly respected, high earning set designer.

Why do people who study art / history of art / fine art ALWAYS have to justify themselves? No it’s not a hobby. Look around you you are surrounded by art created by Amazingly talented people. ThNkfully there are enough of us in the world who realise that. I think I need to put headphones in and go “lalala” whenever this comes up.

@straightjeans @ofclocksandkings @Leonard1 @Bouledeneige Did you read the OPs last update? She's looking into an Art Foundation Diploma for her DD - like this: www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/courses/art-and-design-foundation-diplomas-(art-foundation)/ I don't see what the problem is with that - it's an excellent way to explore areas that your school may not be able to offer before choosing a degree course.

Cucumber gin and original OP I totally agree a Foundation course is the way to go.