AIBU To Give This Financial Idea a Go or am I being naive?

[Nofilter]

Hi,

So, I've been on and off with a lovely, kind and loving guy for almost two years - he's basically waited for me to get my head around becoming a mum unexpectedly in 2016... we dated early 2017 and I just wasn't ready.

A couple of months ago we reconnected and it's the best relationship so far I have ever been in we've really really clicked...

I've been in a bit of a flummox in the last 12 months as I want to invest XX amount in BTL properties and HMOs to complete my existing property portfolio and secure mine and my daughters future. I worked my ass of from the age of 20-33 and then sold my business which left me with a block of money but no career as it was a very specialised area.

My new partner is an artist - is fantastic at interior design and also building (he basically built a whole downstairs basement renovation 5 years ago bringing in the help of his friends and professionals for the items his expertise didn't cover. It was incredible and a massive financial success for the property in terms of adding value.

He's offered to give up a couple of days a week of his self employed business and help me go to auctions, research areas and different types of properties and available yields and then manage the renovations - which is massively valuable to me as just hiring a builder would mean I'd be paying inflated prices for such things.... in return I will cover the loss of income for those days instead.

Ive also been a bit stuck on where to start with it all plus managing my toddler etc and need his help or run the risk of being ripped off in so many ways and messing up this one shot of boxing off our future.

All that seems ok and a no brainer... he's not on an income where he could lose out on business to come and just "do" this as a favour. There's a big difference in our financial situations.

However he has said that if he were ever to move in with me (half way across the country) which he's willing to do and realistic in that it wouldn't be me and my daughter upping roots - he would only do that if he had a fall back plan IE a property of his own to fall back on should things not work out.

He isn't in a position to buy a property of his own... so I think he means us somehow making this happen through the investment ventures or taking a share of equity etc.. he had to start from scratch again ten years ago and it was a horrible time for him. I completely understand that.

This probably sounds confusing! He's willing to basically take this on full time (which is a risk for him as he'd be giving up his self employed client base he's built up over 5 years) and I'm not stupid I have lawyers and accountants and financial advisors to do all my paperwork etc) but it's messy and I've been in financially abusive relationships in the past so I'm trying to get my head around it.

I suppose the options are for him to just earn a wage for working on my projects but that still wouldn't change his situation enough to buy his own place as a fall back if you see what I mean. I know for a fact we could renovate at least 50% lower than what an average builder would charge as he's very resourceful and talented and a hard worker, he would fully immerse himself in a project and crack on all hours of the day....

This is a serious relationship with a future, we have two years of history and he's been the most patient and gentle and loving man I've ever met. I told him in that time I was not interested & I didn't see a future of me bringing a partner into mine and DDs life - and he did date but both of those women told him he was in love with me and they knew it... and we kept reconnecting. All my friends also said the same repeatedly and just think I'm the last to the party to realise so to speak. I wanted to prioritise my DD first which I have done and she's flourishing.

I just don't want to be blinded by love now that I've fallen for the idea of the relationship. I'm the one with the child, we're really happy in our life but I'd love more children and so would he and we are not young.... but I do have this fear over how to proceed with my property venture... I need his help or someone's help!

It's a really good fit in a way - we've a great shot at doing something really cool together here - but does this all sound fair from both sides do you think? Am I being "too" careful given what he's offering to give up or vice versa?

TIA

Good grief no don't do it. You sound quite capable without this dreamer

I really wouldn’t. It sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen.

No. Just .... no. You need to save yourself from yourself.

Honestly op, this is madness. He is an unstable dreamer wanting you to finance his future. You've worked so hard for everything you have, you'd be a fool to risk it. Don't mix business with pleasure. It never works out.

You’ve kind of disguised it in your post but he’s basically saying “buy me a house or I won’t move in with you.”

The fact you would even consider this tells me you are very vulnerable to being blinded by love, as you put it. It is a terrible idea. Don’t do it.

As for the other stuff you’ve proposed, it also sounds very dangerous to be honest. It would put both your relationship and your investments at unnecessary risk and is 100% certain to breed resentments that wouldn’t otherwise be there.

Remember that every penny you invest in this guy is a penny that’s not going towards your child’s future.

Are you employing him? Why can't you set up business together with potentially a spilt equity share to reflect the money that you have put in versus the joint work you'd both be doing?

If you were married then he clearly wouldn't walk away with nothing but you might protect your current share ie not give away current equity in your properties if you added his name / remortgage. Can you not still look at doing that?

I think it's very odd him bringing nothing financially but wanting protection in case of a a spilt. What assets is he afraid of losing?

Surely anything he walks away with from a failed relationship should be half of whatever you jointly make in the relationship unless you have any children together?

Employing him ad hoc sounds fair if he brought a skill but you seem to really be describing half launching a new business together - shouldn't you look to actually do this together?

The thing which really leaps out from this, is that you've only really been together a couple of months, despite a couple of years of on/off. Presumably you still have very little idea what day to day life together will be like once once the honeymoon period is over?

It seems a huge leap to go from new relationship, to business partnership almost instantly, particularly when you appear to be taking all the financial risks.

Do you have the option of just taking things a bit slower? Is there a reason why the property portfolio has to be completed now (particularly when it looks like the market in many places is slowing down and might fall)? Can you just enjoy the next couple of years dating this man and then see how you feel about moving in/ having children/ starting a business together?

It is very unclear what this arrangement is. That was a long difficult to follow post and I am not sure even you are clear. But it seems like he wants you to buy him a house, in return for him coming to live with you and working with you on some things that I don't even think you need him for.

I wouldn't do it, I would also have serious doubts about this relationship and his true intentions.

I can see many ways this could go wrong. I think business ventures can work with a couple as equal partners, but not with one person employing the other.

Thanks so much everyone it's been such a huge help and dose of reality in a confusing thought process.

Bit more info and answer to some questions:

• From this i COMPLETELY agree that we should look at him working for a competitively priced salary on these projects and he can go away and save/buy his own place should he achieve that.

• The reason I want to put the rest in property in terms of investments is that I already have two separate dividend providing shareholding's in two Limited companies and this plus the existing rents covers our really nice lifestyle. I want to add bricks and mortar to try and double the existing figure we get - which

a). Wouldn't be needed so could be invested using our ISA allowances (mine and DDs which we've mostly used up but not since I sold the businesses).

b). Could be used to overpay on our home which I don't ever want to leave and I want to pay the mortgage off sharpish.

c). I also have investments in stocks and shares but property to me - if you can have a 50% buffet should things crash just feels right in my gut if you see what I mean?

I'm going to speak to him further and get some clear answers from the advice on this thread, I'll make a list and speak to him.

From where I am standing I just don't know where I would find the time to dedicate to doing this properly - I could go or and buy a number of properties at top whack prices - HMOs already built, BTL with cosmetic work needed and have a stressful few years and miss out on my DD and precious quality time. It would take 5-10 years to really start making the profit when buying at those prices whereas with him I have the chance of adding value and making more profit straight away.

I do not see managing builders etc an option on my own as I am now I'm already a full time single mum who has plenty to manage as it is with my current assets, businesses, 4 horses and enjoying my DD - which is my priority above everything else.

But, maybe that's also a way to go, keep it clean cut and simple - I shudder at the thought though of choosing the right property/area etc although I've been researching for a good few years, am already a landlord and do have a fair few contacts myself...

Much to think about :-)

Also without divulging personal information there are zero red flags in his past and as to why he is in a HA property now.

It was also a financially abusive relationship he was in and he walked away with nothing for his sanity. It's a "small world" where we live and I was privy to this info at the time...

Like me he's probably had opportunities to fight back with people who've taken the proverbial but has chosen to be the bigger person really and not get into a cat fight over who owns what when you find your in a relationship with a really shit person....

Me - i could afford it. Him - it ruined him he started from literally scratch...

Also separating business and relationship.

Relationship - I wouldn't even consider moving a partner in until AT LEAST a year of a successful relationship with me and DD - no way I'm putting her through that - my childhood was full of that.

Business - I'll admit I've been a bit stuck as to where the hell to start but this is just talk at the moment sharing of ideas really...

I get what you are saying about shared experience but there is a difference between you. You have worked hard in those years to build something for yourself. Your DP does not seem to have spent 10 years investing in his financial future so effectively is asking you to invest in his future going forward. This is an imbalance based upon 1 conversion job he did 5 years ago? I am sure he is a nice DP but he may not be a good business partner and combining them may ruin your relationship

FYI I have recently become aware of this exact scenario in my own life - on a much lower scale. It is not ungenerous to question someone’s financial stability, work ethic but you are only able to look at his personality and this is clouding you.
To go into business surely you would need to look at what he can offer objectively - take out the past, take out your relationship. Does he truely have the skills, ability and resilience to commit to the business? What if it takes 5 years for him to profit? Is he able to take this risk?

For me it doesn't even matter why he's in his current position, you're essentially talking about making him either a business partner or an employee.

This should be a business decision, not one marred by personal relationships in a fairly young stage.

Is an artist with no consistent track record in the industry the best candidate to fill a business partner gap or hire as an employee?
This is totally aside from the things that could go wrong when you add the personal relationship in.

You need the best party to the job, be it skills, contacts, a healthy level of risk to instill confidence... Not someone who is appointed because you're doing him a favour as this girlfriend and you happen to be a business woman who can help set him up financially - that is NOT your responsibility!

Ok I understand. This is really helping me with clarity on the situation.

I think it's a really messy idea and I'm going back to the drawing board..

Going to chat further with him as we are way way way away from putting anything into the moving stage.

As a start he has offered to give up 2 days per week if I subsidise it at a very basic cost to fully devote himself to researching the markets/properties - a test property etc which would give him effectively 4 days including the weekend without either of us taking too much risk really...

How do I get myself into these situations agh!

Did it ruin your relationship pookie

But if you only compensate him for a very basic amount, then he can come back later (if you ever split) and say he only agreed to that as he believed he would get 50% of all profit. Don't do that.

You need to separate this. You have yoir personal relationship and that is whatever you want it to be.

Then you have a business relationship.

One has nothing to do with the other. Pay him for his work, but get an agreement that he has no stake in your property; he is simply hired as a project manager.

I understand the he doesn't want to lose everything again, but he is asking you to buy him a property... do you see the difference? It's one thing for him to protect his own money and lifestyle, but it's another thing entirely to get a property from a new partner. He's not trying to protect himself, he's trying to better himself with your money.

You are no where near marriage so do not merge finances. Keep it separate. Hire him as a project manager with a proper or rate salary and do not give him a stake in your properties or buy him his own.

*pro rata salary

It was a new relationship, not any business arrangements but I begun to get a creeping feeling that I could possibly financially entangle myself with this man and it would be a big mistake. Nice man, appears to work hard. But a realistic look at both our lives showed me that he had little to offer me but yet a huge risk to me.

You have some serious assets - more than me and you do need to protect yourself. Unromantic as it is.

• Over the same span of years I have worked hard at a career and independence despite having my DC almost full time (now older)

-He has very small DC, and neither before or after they have arrived in under a decade has he made any career progress in fact I think he works less now. He’s coasting. Relatively well skilled at what he does but it seems more for pleasure than it does hard work to build his own future

• very hung up on wanting recognition for his skills, rather than just putting them to use in whatever way necessary
• living in social housing in somewhat a state of ancient decor for many years, no savings, no pension and still accumulating significant debt (some for his ‘work’ but things that don’t pay for themselves because he isn’t working enough)
• the idea (his) that I could help him buy his social housing because I am a higher and consistent earner and he can’t get a mortgage. This would mean giving up my own tenancy and the house isn’t even big enough for everyone. The fact he hasn’t done anything to the house in 15 or so years or more doesn’t fill me with hope that it will ever happen unless I made it happen.

So it’s not exactly the same but I felt like buying a house with someone one day who brings nothing but ‘skills’ just isn’t enough to make me take the risk.

I actually think you'd be better off buying a property that's ready to rent out with no work needed, if you've got the money to do it. Far less stressful than project managing your boyfriend! Maybe a few years down the line you might look at it as more of a partnership - you provide the capital and he does the grunt work - but it's really not appropriate at this stage in your relationship. Especially not if he's hinting about wanting to be given a property

From this i COMPLETELY agree that we should look at him working for a competitively priced salary on these projects and he can go away and save/buy his own place should he achieve that

Do not have sex with an employee. And do not employ someone you are having sex with.

with him I have the chance of adding value and making more profit straight away.

You also have a big fat chance of a failure that makes you a loss and leaves the two of you hating each other.

From where I am standing I just don't know where I would find the time to dedicate to doing this properly -

Then you can't do it. You'll have to pay your mortgage off slowly over time, like everyone else.

Also without divulging personal information there are zero red flags in his past and as to why he is in a HA property now.

This whole situation is a red flag. You are basing a fantasy (of fast profitable property development without you having to put in all the intensive time and up-front money) on a single piece of work he did five years ago. If supervising building projects was his thing he'd have expanded that success and he'd be doing it now.

It was also a financially abusive relationship he was in

So the two of you both have issues around finance and relationships and you should both take precautions to protect yourselves and each other. One grown-up precaution is to not tangle up your emotional and your financial ambitions.

Thanks for advice again.

I have heard loud and clear what I need to. I've been questioning why he is coming into this with conditions - surely I should be enough.

Massive red flag of how I've behaved to get into a messy idea again... I can often undervalue myself.

I've taken all talk of anything financial off he table. He's said "maybe it won't work then because I won't be enough for you - or be able to progress to a change in career in your area."

But like a PP said that's what every single other person has to do in this country...

I've gone into quiet mode I'm just watching him and his reactions now....

My financial advisor has already said he'd help me find the properties / be my ear to discuss things with but his fees are extortionate.

I can do it myself, I know how to run businesses and do due diligence and that's what I'll do but maybe not on as big a scale...

Fed up of men making me feel like their position in life is my responsibility and using my success as something that makes THEM feel bad about themselves.

I've been through hell and back with my ex bus partners, they tried to do illegal things to take my shares, all while I was pregnant and when DD was 10 days old - it's not been plain sailing one bit....

Thankyou Mumsnet for saving me from a potentially awful situation!!

X

His reaction is key.

A normal reaction would be he is mortified at putting you in a difficult position, then bringing new ideas forward about how he will achieve his own goals and ways to jointly bring your relationship together

A not normal reaction is to use emotional blackmail and make you feel like you are letting him down

If he sees this as a business arrangement and not a relationship you will soon find out

Don’t beat yourself up you did everything exactly right, you researched and questioned and then found a conclusion! You sound very astute and I admire what you have achieved. Be proud of yourself

You're talking about a joint venture where one of you puts in the capital and the other puts in time and expertise which is not uncommon. You need to work out what percentages of what comes out at the end and to get contracts drawn up by a solicitor.