If a dog bites, should it be pts?

[Snappedandfarted1]

After a discussion with my dog loving friend, I’m curious as to how many of you dog owners would have your pet pts if it bit you or a member of your family? I don’t mean just a nip, I mean a bite which bleeds a fair amount and requires stitches.

To me, that says that a dog cannot be trusted around a human at all and should be pts, but my friends opinion is that unless the bite causes serious damage it should ultimately be ignored. She did agree that an elderly dog should be pts in this situation but not a young or middle aged dog.

Opinions?

I've worked on farms for the last 20 years and never come across a dog that the farmer I work for couldn't train.
True they're not all the best sheep dogs, but he's never once had to rehome or put one to sleep.

@Frequency I have a border collie cross lab and he loves to chase. However if he does set off after something it only takes one whistle from me and he's back at my heel immediately.

I don't understand why anyone would put an animal to sleep for being an animal. If you don't understand their behaviour and are incapable of handling it then don't keep them.

One of mine air snapped at a friend's boyfriend one time. He was very young at the time. I'd be devastated if he made contact. He growls a lot, hates people looming over him. If he bit me, I'd be absolutely amazed and horrified but I'd blame myself, not the dog. He's not allowed near other dogs. He's mostly fine with people now, just not dogs.

Pissed so a dog chasing a herd of sheep or cattle and biting the heels of the animals? He's the one chasing? They're all running from him. Why do some bite? 50 years my Dad has trained dogs and I will take his knowledge over yours.

Why do some bite?

Fear.

Fear is always the reason a dog bites.

The dog has not been properly socialised around the animals from a young enough age or had a bad experience with them during one of their fear periods and the farmer was too inexperienced to notice the warning signs leading up to the bite.

As a PP pointed out all dogs can be trained when the handler/trainer knows what they are doing even those whose natural instinct to chase (like a lab) can be trained not to by someone with the right knowledge and inclination.

Oh don't be talking about what you don't know.

So you think that every dog that bites is biting out of fear? Lol.

Flip it around for a minute. If a human bit someone what would you think the punishment should be?

@Alilwolf snapping at their heels is not uncommon in collies. It's part of their herding instinct for moving on stubborn stock and is certainly not the trait of a killer. In fact in most working farms this behaviour is controlled but not discouraged as the dog needs to keep its dominance over the herd.
If your father is putting animals to sleep for something that has been bred into them as part of the very job they are designed to do then I wouldn't be taking his knowledge over anyone's, sorry.
Having been part of a large farming community for many years, knowing several sheep and cattle farmers I've never heard one refer to a dog as wicked.

There is snapping and there is biting. That's the difference.
And please don't diss my Dad.

So it is fine for a dog to bite someone, draw blood, injure a kid/human. But a human will be incarcerated for a similar act. OK. Get the difference. I do.

Just no, as it totally depends on the procacation.

@Alilwolf I didn't 'diss' your Dad. I disagreed with the things you're saying about his methods and opinions and I shall continue to do so.
The correct term is gripping. It's what border collies do.
Perhaps he's just the unluckiest man in the world to have ended up with these savage killers

It would always depend on the circumstances of the bite. If I was talking about my dogs biting, then I would be taking them straight to the vet to get them checked because it would be completely out of character. It just isn't in their nature and unlike many on MN, my dogs are family and we love them dearly, they are not disposable.

IME, truly unprovoked attacks are rare. There is usually always a reason why a dog resorts to biting, and a lot of the time I think it's their humans that are at fault tbh.

@bofsy1 no one said it's fine but look at the circumstances surrounding the incident first.

Either ignorant and uneducated owners /humans around the dog create the problem in the first place

As a PP pointed out all dogs can be trained when the handler/trainer knows what they are doing even those whose natural instinct to chase (like a lab) can be trained not to by someone with the right knowledge and inclination.

Thing is, most sheep farmers do not have the inclination to retrain a buying collie who’s not making the grade as a sheep dog. No judgement from me - those digs are simply not fit for their purpose m, which is to safely and predictable herd sheep.

Now, whether you think they are ‘wicked’ and should be put down or whether you think they are misunderstood and better suited to a pet lifestyle is up for debate.

But you can’t reasonably judge a sheep farmer for not wanting to spend all the intensive hours retraining a dog that’s unreliable around livestock when your business (hard, labour- intensive, stressful, physical business) is the welfare of livestock.

retrain a buying collie = retrain a biting collie

So many typos, sorry

The conversation we were having centred around an unprovoked attack. If a dog felt threatened and it’s instinct was to attack, then that’s a different situation and I would agree to not pts (but perhaps muzzle outside the home).

A pp said that their dog felt threatened and growls if people loom over him, but how would anyone know not to do this unless instructed not to by the owner? Would that be a justified attack by the dog, or should the owner be held responsible for not seeing the warning signs that their pet feels threatened and acting accordingly?

Seems to me that a lot of people put the feelings and sensitivities of their pets before the safety of others.

My dogs are elderly and would be hugely out of character so I would take all circumstances into consideration but yes, I may.

I was bitten (totally unprovoked and I didn't have my dogs with me) by a dog when walking down the street with my toddler (I scooped the toddler up when I saw the dog coming towards us - protecting her from a potentially life changing injury). The dog bit me twice causing not insignificant damage but extensive bruising and cuts through thick jeans. Just pleased it wasn't her face as that was the same level. The dog is now subject to a control order and has to be muzzled and on a short lead at all times. It is fairly local to us and have seen it a few times since following the order and I am happy with that resolution.

There are plenty of humans that do significant unprovoked damage to both other humans and animals. Should we put them down?

It depends. If my dog bit me, I'd probably take it as a failure on my part to notice she was unhappy. Unprovoked bites with no warning signs are very unusual. Usually dogs toss out a ton of warnings before they get to the stage where they bite (unless it's a bite where they were suddenly woken up or where they were touched somewhere that was painful for them, etc.)

‘wicked dogs’ what a load of crap

DFOD

@Snappedandfarted1 do you have any experience of dogs at all?
Unprovoked attacks by dogs with no prior warning signs are very very uncommon

Unfortunately most people don't recognise any of the signs until it's too late.

In the situation you described, yes of course the owner is responsible for telling people not to loom over her dog if she knows it's something he/ she doesn't like. And to be honest if someone's stupid enough to go looming over a dog they don't know then that's their own fault.

It's not about putting the sensitivities of their animals before safety it's about common sense.
Switching the scenario for a minute, I've owned my horse now for 14 years. She was given to me by a lady who'd had her dumped in her field by her previous owner. This girl was considered an experienced rider but branded this horse a 'psycho', unridable and ditched her.
When I first began riding her she felt confused, but not a psycho by any means. With a bit of time and patience she's become one of the most loyal, trustworthy and willing horses I've ever had the pleasure to own.
Had her previous owner had her way, she'd have been sent to the glue factory.
Explain how it's fair that an animals life has to end due to the ignorance of humans? Because that's really what we're talking about here

Depends on the dog, why it bit and likelyhood of it happening again - Few dogs bite for the fun of it.

A friend's dog ran out the front door the other month and bit another friend who was about 30yds from the house on the upper arm (giant dog). It was totally unprovoked and only happened because it was an agressive dog and poorly handled/abused from day 1 (friend took it in as a rescue).

I am of the belief the dog should've been put down that evening. Friend did not agree. Other friend did not want to push it as he wants to shag friend #1.

Dog died of natural causes a few weeks ago. I have a slight feeling though that it may have been 'helped along' by a neighbour who witnessed the attack and has very young children who play nearby.

Also dogs show warning signs. All dogs show them. Humans are just shit at reading them.

In most cases, if a dog bites I would find a human to be the cause. I wouldn't put a dog to sleep if there were any way to avoid it.

However there are cases where a genetic or physical issue will cause a dog to bite without warning. Spaniel Rage is an example. In a case where the cause is physical and incurable, there's no way to make a dog safe.

I would also consider putting to sleep any large breed dog that had suddenly mauled or caused serious injury. I would be gutted, though.