Do you think that the thousand of young men who laid down their lives for this country would be proud of doing so now

[teacherspet]

Just that really, there is so much greed, grabbyness, laziness and violence in the country. I can't imagine that those very young men who marched into almost certain death would feel that it was worth it.

WW1 was a total disaster - fought for questionable reasons; and at the beginning young men went off thinking it was all going to be a great adventure and having no idea of the reality that they would face. It is totally heart-breaking to think of the waste of life and the fact that the generals conducting the war were incompetent in their conduct of the war. What a bloody shambles. And then sadly many times more people than died in that carnage succumbed to the 'flu immediately afterwards.

The idea that they thought they were fighting that war for some basic important principles does not really hold water - initially they went for the adventure; then they were conscripted. And if they showed fear (and who wouldn't?) this country shot them for cowardice - utterly sick.

And - guess what? - it all happened again a few years later - only with more "sophisticated" weaponry and the slaughter of citizens in their thousands.

But I do not share the OP's dim view of society now - we have our problems of course, but the majority of people I meet are decent and honest with laudable values. Clearly this does not apply to everyone, but I do not think that things are as bad as painted.

I cannot join in remembrance - I simply do not have the stomach for it. My father (who was in the far east in WW2) absolutely refused to have anything to do with it all and that made a huge impact on me as a child. But I respect those who honour armistice day.

Its a highly sensitive issue. The time of the 1st and 2nd world wars were very different.

The ordinary working people were much different than today. Those who signed up probably never had an inkling of what war was about. They joined up for a plethora of reasons. The Government of they day told them they needed to enlist, their friends and family were all doing it, they thought it was the only right thing to do. They would easily beat the Germans and it would all be sorted quickly. Few felt they could dissent.

Of course many were conscripted and had little choice in the matter.

In that era of course we didnt have war live on TV. All we had was fake Government propaganda.

Remember the Falklands war? we could see our own ships burning on the six o clock news ,people dying,casualties being rescued from the Sir Galahad as it was bombed by the Argentinians,,so far away and yet so real.

I have letters in my possession relating to the death of a young seaman aged 19 who lost his life on a /royal Navy ship bombed by the germans off the coast of Italy. After the war a memorial was built in plymouth i think . His mother who was poor wrote to the war office to ask if any help was available for train fare so she could attend the dedication ceremony as she lived in the far north of England. The reply said that no their wasnt. Those in power just used people as cannon fodder and claimed the glory for victory.

His body still lies on that ship in the depths of the Mediterranean sea along with his equally young friends.

I think it would be very different today.

My grandad was 16 in 1914, but he and his friends friend lied to join up because they thought they were going on an exciting adventure.

Many of the young men who wanted to volunteer were probably thinking the same, or got caught up in idealisms. My grandfather (from different side than the previous story I just wrote) really wanted to volunteer during WWII. In the country in question every man above 18 was automatically conscripted, but younger boys could volunteer. All his friends were doing it. It seemed like to be a "proper man", you'd volunteer. His father, already in the war, absolutely forbade him, telling him he had no idea... I think he was very angry with his father at the time, but in his later life told this story being very thankful indeed.

Yes, I do understand conscription and perceived machismo was a large part, like I say, I am finding the images quite distressing, it must have been hellish to live through and sometimes I look around me and see things that are very wrong in the world. As many have said, the first world war was fought by young men for the wrong reasons and is totally different to the second world war.

Mishappening... I used to feel like that. I have lessened my views now and wear a poppy, but in my head to remember the pointless waste of life in all sides, fighting on the orders of others.

Military people being automatically labelled heroes annoys me, they are not my heroes, but I've learnt to just ignore it.

Arnoldthecat totally agree. My son will never see combat as they did in the first or second world war. Weaponry is very sophisticated nowadays. I recently heard somebody say that the war in Afghanistan was like fighting ghosts and that you rarely see anybody to shoot at.

I do wear a poppy, but I always think of my friend who is retired from the British Army with massive health problems. I know he wasn't doing it all out of pride for the country. He did it for his team, mostly, I think. From how he talks, it's the team you're with that matters - your mate's life. He has had help from veterans' aid (not sure what any correct name for it would be), so I buy the poppy in the hopes the funds might help people like him.

Britain did go into WWI relatively honourably, to protect Belgium. I think of Remembrance Day as more of a monument to peace too, against the machinations of exploitative elites. I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but at this time of leaving the EU it seems particularly relevant.

My grandad lies about his age to join his older brothers in action during WWII. He saw some terible things, including Bergen-Belsen. I asked him shortly before he died if he’d do it again if he had his time over. His answer was no

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

(The old Lie)

I entirely agree amicissimma it was all very different back then and nobody understood what they were getting in to.

The whole reason they were in the trenches was because pompous old fools with money and privilege ran the country.

Whatever you think of the way society is led nowadays (and it is a shambles in some ways) it is in infinite improvement on the situation in 1914.

Bumpsadaisie Do you really think anything has changed?

"If any question why we died
Tell them because our fathers lied."

^Kipling. Always thought it summed up the sacrifice of WW1 nicely.

Yes, because the world we live in now is such a shambles compared to 1914. Women have the right to vote, and to have a job. Homosexuals don’t face prison and condemnation. Children have a right to an education. Healthcare is free for all. The poor don’t live in total squalor before dying from hunger. Yeah, I hear you OP, life in Edwardian Britain was soooo much better for most people. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to how life truly was, before making ridiculous statements?

You beat me to it WeirdCatLady. I'd also add the fact that we don't have conscription any more to your list

There was a huge amount wrong with society in 1914-1918. Everyone had their place & you didn't move class. To the extent they were laying their lives down, that's the world they were fighting for. Never mind if you were gay or the wrong skin colour.

I don't buy into "modern society is terrible but the past was wonderful". Every era has its problems. DS joined the Army so OP's question may be his real decision. He's sure of himself, so far. He does have rather tribal views of the world, fair enough.

I think too it’s important not to attribute anachronistic beliefs to he young men if 1818.

Most of them would have had fairly ‘conservative’ views on race and equality, because those were the beliefs of their time.

That generation shaped the country as it is today and while there are still many problems, I think they would be proud that it is a free country where the vast majority of people can live reasonably good lives.

Sorry, young men of 1918, not 1818! Though point is the same—they probably, as a whole, did not believe in things we take for granted.

We found a mainstream newspaper from the 1930s—so decades on from WW1– in our old house. The cartoon was jaw-droppingly racist.

The first world war had piss all to do with freedom. It was about squabbling rich families sending men to die on a scale not experienced by Western society prior to that. World war two was about keeping foreign expansionism in check and certainly not about good and evil or any of the other stuff people pin on it, but it at least was generally worth fighting. Anything since then is dodgy in the extreme - should we really have a national day of celebrating "heroes" who committed dirty acts in Ireland or bombed civilians using drones, all while being paid for it? I'm not sure.

As for the world war one soldiers, I'd imagine that they'd be quite fucked off to have died to assauge the vainglorious pretensions of the people who sent them there, so how UK society is now would barely register on their consciousness.

And just to be clear, although Western nations hadn't experienced loss of life on that scale before, other parts of the world certainly had. At the behest of the same people who sent the soldiers into the trenches.

I think the phrase 'laid down their lives' totally romanticises the whole thing. Those men did not want to die, they weren't sacrificing themselves to give their descendents a better life. As a pp said, the first lots of men who went didn't really know what they were getting into, and after that they were forced to go.

The vast majority of them were just normal blokes with normal lives.

Tbh, since I had kids I find it so hard to watch or read anything to do with war. Not because I don't care, but because it just makes me so angry.