Accused of racism

[Worried2987]

I was called into hr this afternoon and told that a couple of women 9n another team had heard me discussing something with colleagues that they have said was racist and made them uncomfortable.

This was to do with someone say8ng they liked Jeremy Clarkson and I said he got in trouble for saying the eeny meany miny moe song and instead of froggy (as I had learnt it) had used the n word. A girl on my team didn't know what I meant. I said I'm not saying the word but it was racist term.
They have reported me because they said the whole song is racist regardless of whether the word is changed.
I was mortified. I said I was ignorant to the whole song being racist. I apologised and have offered to apologise to them in person. I said I appreciated that it wasn't being formally reported as I realise that would be career ending and it was an honest error. My hr director said he'd taken this approach as he knows me. That I'm not racist and he was telling me for my own benefit. That the song is connected with the slave trade in USA.

I went home in tears. I'm totally shaken and scared.

I've since been looking on the internet and am totally confused the rhyme with an animal name seems to be common usage. It's a kids cartoon on you tube. Wiki says it's common for children's rhymes and even a us website said it's taught in schools with the animal word tiger or frog.
So can you say it or not?
(I'm still going to apologise as I think there will be a on awkward tension in the office).

At work it’s best to stick to really insipid conversations.

It’s easy to misconstrue something overheard or to make a complaint about someone you don’t like.

Years ago i worked for a small organation. New member of staff referred to herself as ‘coloured’. All staff v uncomfortable and we explained it’s not a term that’s acceptable in the UK.

She put in a complaint against the entire office that as a mixed South African she is coloured and the fact other people wouldn’t accept that meant it slurred her identity.

Surely this is bollocks?

You would be suprised.

Well there are a group of people that identify "as coloureds" in south africa and their heritage is a mix of different races. im not sure why why your office had a problem with how somone defines themseleves, howrude?

When I was a kid.... the word was 'piggy'. I've never heard any other version.... I'm late 40s.

I never knew of the racial history behind it either and I'm black.

In the context of the conversation...you weren't racist. Talking about someone being racist isn't being racist.

All those saying you've been disciplined are wrong. You havent been disciplined.

You've been spoken to...not disciplined.

Disciplinary action requires a full investigation...by way of an interview with you...the opportunity to have representation and all witnesses interviewed.

"Surely this is bollocks?

You would be suprised."

Yes I would. Very. I have never come across any story like this that has been anything but complete bollocks. Or a very one sided partial account.

The song is racist.

Having just looked at the wikipedia entry for it, the version with the n-word is just an american variation of a song that has had had many variations over centuries. It's not true that that version is the original one that has been cleaned up for modern ears.

So I would say that song is not is not intrinsically racist, though there has been a racist version of it.

Having said that, it could be offensive by association. Though customers who tried to sue a US airline on that basis lost their case.

A jocular use of a form of the rhyme by a Southwest Airlines flight attendant, encouraging passengers to sit down so the plane could take off, led to a 2003 lawsuit charging the airline with intentional infliction of emotional distress and negligent infliction of emotional distress. Two versions of the rhyme were attested in court; both "Eeny meeny miny mo, Please sit down it's time to go" and "Pick a seat, it's time to go". The passengers in question were African American and stated that they were humiliated due to what they called the "racist history" of the rhyme. A jury returned a verdict in favor of Southwest and the plaintiffs' appeal was denied

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe

I don’t know why it’s surprising that the song has racist connotations as you raised it to talk about an incident of racism. You weren’t singing the song because you liked it, you were specifically talking to your colleague who liked Clarkson about the racist thing he got in trouble for. Is the policy of your workplace that you can’t talk about racist incidents? I hope that colleagues that were offended didn’t repeat what happened to anyone else, if they are overheard they might get reported for racism.

If you are ignorant of the racist origins of a song or saying (which aren't always agreed on btw), then you're not committing an act of racism by quoting it. Someone who overhears and is aware of the connection may be upset, but they need to understand that there was no bad intent.

If you were asked to read out a sentence in a language you didn't know, and were then told that it translated as "black people are bad", were you racist? Of course not. Would someone who understood the language be justified in being upset if they didn't realise your ignorance of the meaning? Yes. But you have not done anything wrong.

I don’t know why it’s surprising that the song has racist connotations as you raised it to talk about an incident of racism.

But it wasn't the song Clarkson got in trouble for, according to OP (I don't remember the details myself) but the fact that he used the 'n' word instead of tigger or another normal alternative.
Nobody can claim they don't know that word is highly offensive!

Where i'm from

Eeny meeny miney mo

Pick the baby by his toe

When he's done, wipe his bum.

Eeny meeny miney mo.

We also had

Ip dip dogshit

Who stood in it ?

It was you so you are O U T spells out.

The whole thing sounds farcical.

Let me guess, you work somewhere in the public sector?

How old were the people who complained?

I was a bit shocked to hear that my step son complained about a colleague who referred to someone as Chinese. They were Chinese and he was asking where they were but didn't know their name.... My SS complained that it was racist. His Dad and I were a bit

But he is 23, finished Uni, very idealistic views, zero tolerance on any slur regarding race, gender, sexuality etc

He used the song with the n word in it. There isn’t really a need to separate the two things. Here the OP also talked about the song using the n word. Why there is a need to discuss whether the song without the n word ia racist, I don’t really know. That isn’t what happened. She talked about the song with the n word in it.

However, I don’t think repeating what Clarkson did is racism at all.

That song wasn't originally racist in the US either, its origin has nothing to do with slave trading either. It only became racist later when the 'n' word was put in it in place of tiger. It's still acceptable to sing it with the word tiger in it and that's the only version I was aware of as a child in the US.

Why there is a need to discuss whether the song without the n word is racist, I don’t really know.

But OP says "They have reported me because they said the whole song is racist regardless of whether the word is changed." Or do you mean that the complainers shouldn't have discussed it?

You haven't said or done anything racist. I'd be evaluating this myself to someone above the HR rep and getting them reprimanded for terrifying you and not doing their job.

No, OP you need to go back to the HR person.

This is ridiculous.

Me telling a colleague what Philip Green has recently been accused of, doesn't make me guilty of bullying and sexual assault!

That song wasn't originally racist in the US either, its origin has nothing to do with slave trading

That happens with so many things. People are accused of bigotry for using a phrase that apparently originated in a certain circumstance, but there is no consensus on its origin.
I don't know the roots of this song, so it shouldn't be treated as a done deal that it is racist in nature. Maybe it is! Maybe not.

OP I take it you sang the rhyme while telling the JC story? (Not that I think you shouldn't have) And presumably they're not offended that you just mentioned someone else having sung it.

OP I would email your HR department with your description of what happened and who you were talking to. Include a description of what the HR dept said to you and what you said and describe your shock. Say that after further reflexion, you are not prepared to apologise for what was an anti-racist conversation but would be prepared to meet with HR and the complainants and a representative to thrash it out.

Jenny17 "It's the person who is offended who gets to decide as an absolute is a minefield in personal and social relationships. Which is why a "sorry you were offended" rather than "sorry for what I said" is probably the way forward for the OP.

This is a classic case of PC mad nonsense!

Unfortunately neither you, nor HR could do anything differently now because the offended party chose to go down that route.

You apologised and hopefully your apology will be accepted as sincere and everyone can move on.

In my day it was the N word. When my kids were young it was Tiger. It was taught to them at daycare.

I would have told HR that they were being ridiculous and to go fuck themselves (in polite language).

**But OP says "They have reported me because they said the whole song is racist regardless of whether the word is changed." Or do you mean that the complainers shouldn't have discussed it?

Sorry, perhaps this wasn’t clear... I don’t understand the nature of the complaint at all. It isn’t like OP was saying ‘oh DD’s favourite song is catch a tigger’, in which case I could understand the discussion. She was talking about something racist someone else did and referred to the ‘einee menee minie moe’ song and the ‘n word’. I don’t get what is racist about that. She was discussing an incident, picking one part what she said and saying it’s racist is very odd. The context as a whole has to be looked at surely?

The complaint as put by HR is mind boggling.

"red had a point that all too often white people claim things are not racist or find a black friend who isn't offended. The person being offended gets to decide and it cannot be taken away from them. "

But this is different to deciding if the rhyme is racist, the op wasn't sitting around saying the rhyme and then getting upset when she was called out for being racist.

She was referencing someone else's use of it and condemning it as racist.

So if tomorrow let's say Trump used a racist term, maybe not the N word but something that might be a bit more obscure or less widely used like "cholo" or "wetback"
There would be a big difference between someone in the workplace saying "can you believe Trump said such an appalling thing" and referencing his comments and someone defending the comments along the lines of " it's PC gone mad, you can't say anything anymore/ I don't believe those terms are resist, they're just normal phrases"